I am actually of the opinion that it's not that simple, but I still agree we should still do
I feel like trivializing the idea of reconceptualizing someone you knew make it sound like you really don't understand the person that has this struggle.
Again, I don't think it's a good excuse to misgender/deadname someone, but when I was conservative I thought a lot of people were full of shit because they trivialized things that I actually struggled with myself. I just thought they were all pretending it was no big deal.
My mom is one of those people, is relatively progressive but is scared for certain language that keeps her a 'conservative'. Conservative propaganda pushes these type of posts to make fun of people for being just a decent human being.
We live in an heavily gendered society, despite what people may want, and that affects language. It's much easier to remember someone changed their name to something that matches the gender you knew them as than the opposite.
My point I guess is some names are hard to say in your accent, some communities you're not gonna know enough to interact with without putting your foot in your mouth, and in real life, dead naming someone by accident isn't a big deal as long as it's actually on accident.
But it can feel like it's going to be big deal, mainly because of posts like this that make it sound like you just do not understand the struggle, even though it's small related to the struggles of the person being deadnamed. I haven't had any trans person be upset when I was ignorant in real life, but I have seen hundred of posts being condescending to hypothetical people.
Just to be clear: Op is very clearly talking to people who pretend remembing a different name is difficult as an excuse not to learn or change their behavior. I am just trying to provide a different outlook on how people not in your circle may respond to it
It’s laziness, and I say this with compassion and understanding of human nature. When a name or label changes to a completely different word, all the learned association reliant on the term changes too, so it’s difficult to adjust for many people, takes time and effort. When I changed my name, it was similar sounding enough that people didn’t really struggle at all with the adjustment, but I’m an outlier.
I feel that OP is poking at people who just don’t wanna try to see people as they are, and instead just resist the effort to mentally adjust for the sake of others.
You can choose to think everyone's being lazy, or you can choose to have compassion. Personally I think more people are being defensive than lazy. No one is asking you to have compassion for people who are intentionally being a dick.
I just full stop disagree with your post. Changing a name does not just suddenly update the context. You even acknowledge your name was easier because it was so similar. You need to understand that other people have not learned to stop seeing the world through gender yet like you have. We all start with an incredibly gendered view of the world. It's okay to be honest with the world that exists, while wanting it to be different.
Can confirm, this message does not feel like it's aimed at the well meaning person who's struggling getting it right. It's directed at people like my mom who use "it's hard" as an excuse to never try in the first place. As long as I see someone is making an honest effort, I don't give a damn if they just outright get my name/pronouns wrong the majority of the time. It's usually pretty easy to tell the difference between an honest mistake and someone being an asshole about it.
I feel as though a lot of the vitriol comes from people that don't really have these conversations in real life and are using me to argue with the conservative commentor in their life. I don't blame them, it's tough not feeling validated for something as simple as how you refer to yourself.
My partner is the same way, they made a character with their same gender and then kept accidently misgendering themselves constantly to the point where it's part of the character now.
yep, it's just laziness or lack of respect, it's not that hard
if you can be a fucking nerd and memorize a rpg character dozen titles, can change a persons name to nickname on the fly, go from calling your boss from their name to just boss when talking to them
you can very fucking well learn to stop using one name forever and using a new one permanently
but people will prioritize themselves first, so laziness into not changing the name at the cost of making someone else fell uncomfortable is option 1
If kratos from God of War changed his named, I would probably still call him Kratos for awhile. I don't think people just do that with every change. People are famously resistant to change.
I am that nerd. I have hundreds of D&D characters that I play that I can remember names, epithets, titles, etc. I recently had a character transition offscreen, and it took a lot of work to not accidently say "she" because I had been using that pronoun for her the entire campaign before that point. I did not mind doing that work, and now it's pretty easy, but I'm also progressive and surrounded by queer people, and nowhere near the same bubble I was in when I was conservative.
You are the one that doesn't understand, and I am asking you to have empathy for the people that aren't intentionally doing it. You think it's easy because you are unable to put yourself in the shoes of someone who isn't part of the counter culture.
Also nowhere in my post did I imply it's impossible to learn. It's absolutely not hard to learn someone's preferred way of referring to themselves. But it's never instant, even for queer people. And the condesention of these types of posts are doing nothing but making it harder for people not in your bubble to be okay with something that is deeply uncomfortable for them, even if you don't think it's morally correct for them to feel that way
to be okay with something that is deeply uncomfortable for them, even if you don't think it's morally correct for them to feel that way
at least we agree on that
also, i severely doubt that someone that thinks changing your name/pronouns is a moral issue of all things is looking towards the possibility of change, unless pressure is applied to them
You are the one that doesn't understand, and I am asking you to have empathy for the people that aren't intentionally doing it. You think it's easy because you are unable to put yourself in the shoes of someone who isn't part of the counter culture.
I mean, i have empathy, i have lots of empathy towards people that are trying. Literally no one is expecting you to get it right 100% of the times from the get go. But it is easy to try. If you refuse to even try, i'm considering you an asshole, and that's that
Then I guess I don't understand the point of your replies. I am exclusively talking about people who either are trying, or haven't gotten an opportunity to try yet.
I severely doubt that someone that someone that thinks changing your name/pronouns is a moral issue of all things is looking towards the possibility of change, unless pressure is applied to them
My entire point is that the type of pressure you want to put is having the opposite effect on people, and I am telling that was my experience when I was conservative.
You can choose to internalize that and change how you interact with people, or you can ignore it and keep pushing people who are trying away.
Well, if they think i have a fundamental moral issue, i have doubts they're trying to change in favor of me, hell, that's christianism 101 "i don't hate, but i also don't accept", like, just call me a slur already and move on, you're not even trying to look me in the eyes. Again, it's only when pressure is applied of the brand of "okay, it makes me uncomfortable that you keep doing this on purpose, so i'll stop talking to you", when they finally have something to lose that now the weight shifts, now it isn't just a nicety they can choose to simply not do because it's too much work
but well, agree to disagree. I'll primarily stick to people that, when told my preffered named and pronouns, will actually try to stick by them
Again, your responses feel like you think they contradict what I am saying. And they don't. I think you maybe aren't understanding my comment. That's fine, maybe come back to it later and see if you have a different response
Mate, this whole discussion has been a back and forth cause with every comment we go back on who we're talking about, like your last message was about you assuming i push people away that are trying when my argument has exclusively been that i'd only do that towards people that ARE NOT trying, especially ones that are judging me as possessing a moral failling.
Idk if this is because you yourself had a conservative phase and believe that people should've been nicer to you about it, but simply put, if you think me being trans is a moral failing, i won't interact with you. It shouldn't exclusively be in the hands of victim to fix the one being a dick to them.
Quite literally at this point i do not know what you're argumenting against me anymore
i mean, when a third of the comments are cis people going "woe is me, it is actually very hard please be patient with me even tho most trans people never did anything to disprove that", i do think it's important to reinforce that they're not the victims
If you think bringing up how trans people are the actual victims when misgendered over cis people having to learn new names and pronouns is punishing them, then i think you're treating cis people as way too fragile.
Like, how am i being punishing by saying "you're not the biggest victim here" in a situation where the worst thing the person could do is accidentaly say something wrong over possibly having my identity denied on purpose by many others. This isn't a pain olympics, but i think it's ridiculous to say that both sides pain are equal, and i don't think i'm being puritain by putting my foot down and saying you shouldn't be placing a spotlight on yourself for it
I think you're just not reading my comments and then getting mad at what you think they say. I can't think of any other reason your response are this dissenant to what I am saying.
Stop making up strawmen. I don't think I ever implied that they are both equally victims. My post has nothing to do with how much more of a victim one person is over the other. It has everything to do with how you engage people that have a hard time with pronouns.
I don't know how you can disagree with it, it seems you don't based on your rants, but you still seem to think I am saying things I am not
I don't think I ever implied that they are both equally victims.
>comments about how cis people's struggle with keeping up the changes in names and pronouns is a smaller issue when compared to trans people actually getting misgendered
<strongly agrees with that point, specifically by bringing up how so many comments seem to be cis people wanting pats on the back about how hard they're trying and to please be patient even tho the majority of trans people are extremely kind and understanding about it, which started to feel like a weird and slightly annoying shift in discussion
>tells that arguing that is "punishing people for wrongdoings".
<assumes then that the discussion is now about how placing one as more important then the victim over the other, since that was what was argueed in the last message
I guess I am just a more understanding person, and assumed you were misinformed instead of intentionally trying to twist the words I am saying so you can be mad at them. Egg on my face lol
this is the one time i'll say this, but, take that superiority complex "guess i'm just better than you and you're just a hater" and shove it up a bin. Especially when you're the one pushing discussion points that fundamentally don't make sense. How the fuck is saying "yeah, trans people getting misgenered is worse than people struggling to get their pronouns right, and it annoys me seeing people trying to equate both" means that i'm a "puritain in queer clothing that wants to punish them"
42
u/BadgerwithaPickaxe 21d ago edited 21d ago
I am actually of the opinion that it's not that simple, but I still agree we should still do
I feel like trivializing the idea of reconceptualizing someone you knew make it sound like you really don't understand the person that has this struggle.
Again, I don't think it's a good excuse to misgender/deadname someone, but when I was conservative I thought a lot of people were full of shit because they trivialized things that I actually struggled with myself. I just thought they were all pretending it was no big deal.
My mom is one of those people, is relatively progressive but is scared for certain language that keeps her a 'conservative'. Conservative propaganda pushes these type of posts to make fun of people for being just a decent human being.
We live in an heavily gendered society, despite what people may want, and that affects language. It's much easier to remember someone changed their name to something that matches the gender you knew them as than the opposite.
My point I guess is some names are hard to say in your accent, some communities you're not gonna know enough to interact with without putting your foot in your mouth, and in real life, dead naming someone by accident isn't a big deal as long as it's actually on accident.
But it can feel like it's going to be big deal, mainly because of posts like this that make it sound like you just do not understand the struggle, even though it's small related to the struggles of the person being deadnamed. I haven't had any trans person be upset when I was ignorant in real life, but I have seen hundred of posts being condescending to hypothetical people.
Just to be clear: Op is very clearly talking to people who pretend remembing a different name is difficult as an excuse not to learn or change their behavior. I am just trying to provide a different outlook on how people not in your circle may respond to it