It's weird when people act like this is a sexism thing of men belittling women when it's just the classic societal pressure thing. It's one of those classic gender roles that people have been pressured into conforming to.
Both men and women get it for different things.
If a woman is doing manual labour, a man is "encouraged" to help. (ie. He's shamed if he doesn't.) It ingrains itself into your brain so you feel uncomfortable watching women doing something because you're "supposed to" do it for them.
It's also not just men doing it to other men, it's women and men doing it to men. Men are "encouraged" to do it no matter what the woman says. Even if she says she doesn't need help, they're criticised for not helping.
One of my friends was at a party and a drunk guy was getting very close to another friend. He asked her "Are you okay? Do you need help?" and she said very clearly "No. I'm fine. I can handle it."
Even so, another female friend kept bothering him to help the first girl and to ignore that she explicitly told him not to.
Brother that is almost textbook sexism.
The man is expected to do something because of his sex.
The woman is supposed to not do something because of her sex.
Sexism doesn't have to come from a point of belittling another consciously.
It is belittling on a societal level by exaggerating gender norms and sex differences, reducing responsibility, societal power, and motivation+performance.
If you took social psych courses in college, it’ll literally be in half of their textbooks. Tho my profs didn’t like to use textbooks so it was in my lecture slides, readings, and one of my prof’s podcast series…
Actually I wouldn't count that as sexism, it's more so a learned behavior. Sexism would be something discriminate in nature or belittling via stereotypes, the key difference here is the intent behind it, which in this case is a learned gender role behavior that correlates helping as the right solutions.
There is a fine line between naivity and ignorance, and that's where a lot of the difference lies as they simply just don't know better because of their upbringing. It's important to know the difference as labeling someone as sexist can have a negative impact on how they learn to do better!
Well yeah, how else are people supposed to become sexists? Or "portrait sexist behavior" to stay in line with your last sentence.
"Learned gender roles" is the whole thing about sexism. That's why people behave discriminatory or learn those stereotypes.
Maybe you want to distinguish between individual sexism and systemic sexism? But even then, if your behavior is sexist because of your upbringing in a sexist culture, why should the victim of that sexism be responsible for the growth of the offender?
I worked at a mom and pop place that had a lot of mothers come in with babys. I got written up by my female boss several times for not helping them with their stuff... The moms would always verbally tell me they didn't want me to help when I asked Like if they want to be independent, let them! For her to write me up, meant she was also there, not helping.
Systemic stuff doesn't really require personal intent like that. Men are victims of patriarchal systems as well. The man being shamed is part of the sexism against women
Patriarchy isn't just women being treated bad and men being treated good, it's a system where women are pushed to take on the weaker and more submissive role in society, and men are pushed to take on the stronger and more dominant role. Both men and women are harmed by this system. Strong, intelligent, and career driven women might find themselves forced into unfulfilling lives as housewives where they are unable to make use of their skill and drive, and men who lack a career drive and instead fight more enjoyment in domestic work might find themselves forced to take up the role of breadwinner even when they would be much happier as househusband. The idea of shaming a man for not helping a woman with physical labour is derived from the idea that women are weak and incapable of undertaking physical labour, and that men are strong and therefore should take on the burden of physical labour.
You can definitely blame the man. Gender roles is the reason, but someone stills needs to be an adult and have the intelligence to realise the woman can lift her own damn plates, and you’re actually being an arsehole for implying otherwise.
I disagree. It’s up to individuals to deprogram themselves from this received gender role nonsense. Those roles are actually harmful to people and they cause us to harm others so it’s a good idea to do so.
In the scenario from the comic, I think gym bro thinks he’s being helpful (vs. trying to hit on someone) so it’s a very low-stakes example, but it is an accurate one.
Probably my most sexist hot take on this topic but in my life, the women who rant about gender roles and benevolent sexism are the same ones who enforce on me the roles that benefit them.
It’s one of the most obnoxious things about this issue right now, a lot of feminist women seem to be in complete denial over the fact that women are just as guilty as men at pushing people to conform to their role. They’d rather imagine men are the only source of received gender wisdom and the only culpable party. Ie focusing on someone’s sex instead of acknowledging that patriarchy is structural/institutional.
It's curiously a mingling of exactly both I think. Or all three. There's those that want to flirt and the weight approach is the easiest way of interacting without being "that creepy guy at the gym," there's those who think a woman can't/shouldn't be lifting those weights unassisted, and then there's those that just wanna be helpful but are a bit overzealous.
That last part is the one that they all have in common, I think most guys at gym wouldn't interfere with a woman's workout unless there's actual signs of a struggle (in which case I'd assume they'd help be it a guy or a girl, granted they're physically capable of it (like if my scrawny self sees a guy benching five plates each side failing, I think I'd rather let the other muscle bags jump in than be in the way myself "helping")) and otherwise focus on their own workout.
Yes? And most of the gyms I been too had their regular gymbro regulars that just wandered around helping spot people looking to bench if they didn't have a spotter already.
What kind of gyms are you going to where this isn't the norm?
Normal gyms where people work out on their own all the time and very few would lift enough to require a spotter and if they needed one just ask. Definitely no expectation of having extra spotters around lol
The problem is assuming that we need help because we're women. The whole chivalry thing is sexist for both men and women. If you see someone struggling, of course, offer your help. If they seem fine, leave them. Women just want to do their part and to not be treated like they're weak or constantly need help. A lot of us do heavy lifting actually 😅
Helping someone unload a bar that someone else left a bunch of shit on is prescribed gender roles (plus some solidary in thinking the previous person's actions are rude). Helping someone load a bar is just braindead.
My father still brings up the fact that my now husband then boyfriend did not help me shovel our drive way 15+ years later. I had just watched him do his grandparents house so I did my parents house before going inside. He had never been forgiven.
Search up benevolent sexism. Women on average like it. It also tends to worsen women’s drive, performance, and social status.
Ideally we wouldn’t have any sort of sexism (not saying to ignore all sex differences). Tho ofc most women indoctrinated with the societal norms wouldn’t reject support, while u’d also see a small subsection of those women take that to the extremes and hold blatant double standards.
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u/Stormfly 6d ago
It's weird when people act like this is a sexism thing of men belittling women when it's just the classic societal pressure thing. It's one of those classic gender roles that people have been pressured into conforming to.
Both men and women get it for different things.
If a woman is doing manual labour, a man is "encouraged" to help. (ie. He's shamed if he doesn't.) It ingrains itself into your brain so you feel uncomfortable watching women doing something because you're "supposed to" do it for them.
It's also not just men doing it to other men, it's women and men doing it to men. Men are "encouraged" to do it no matter what the woman says. Even if she says she doesn't need help, they're criticised for not helping.
One of my friends was at a party and a drunk guy was getting very close to another friend. He asked her "Are you okay? Do you need help?" and she said very clearly "No. I'm fine. I can handle it."
Even so, another female friend kept bothering him to help the first girl and to ignore that she explicitly told him not to.
Damned if you do and damned if you don't.