r/composer • u/PenaltyPotential8652 • May 10 '26
Discussion Why does B seem like such an uncommon key?
I play piano and I can’t tell you the last time I came across a piece in B. To be fair, as a beginner to intermediate player I haven’t played/learned that many pieces so far.
How does B fair with the other orchestral instruments? Is it a comfortable key to play for them? Are there any important factors I should consider when composing for orchestra in this key? Side note: And is G#min comfortable for the players as well?
I’m primarily asking because B is my favorite key to play and write in on the piano.
Would love to hear your thoughts! Thanks
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u/gottahavethatbass May 10 '26
B is fun on piano. That’s it though. No other instruments would prefer B over anything else
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u/Banjoschmanjo May 10 '26
Clarinet in A is fine with concert B
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u/NeferyCauxus May 10 '26
I love playing B major on flute, and I've played a few fun b major pieces. Though if I have to go between many sharp key signatures I loathe them.
Recently I played a piece in the key of B and it was fun, but my second piece was in the key of E but would frequently switch to F# with the accidentals being added instead of writing the key signature change, and the third piece was in A major. Though playing these back to back made me mix the key signatures so much that I had to write in notes names which I've never had to do before
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u/chillinjustupwhat May 10 '26
untrue. on guitar Bm/Dmaj is a sweet spot.
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u/DukeHorse1 May 10 '26
B means B major
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u/chillinjustupwhat May 10 '26
B major is fine too … for me … guitar.
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u/gottahavethatbass May 10 '26
Okay. It’s fun on piano and guitar. Let’s throw in voices as well
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u/RevKeakealani May 10 '26
Depends on the voice type. B sits at a passaggio for a lot of mezzos.
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u/gottahavethatbass May 10 '26
Okay, then the limit is keyboard and guitar.
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u/chillinjustupwhat May 10 '26
In general i think it’s a mistake to make blanket statements such as “no other instruments would prefer “ such and such. Banjo in bluegrass, sax in jazz , pedal harp…. it can be a choice.
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u/gottahavethatbass May 10 '26
Pedal harp is interesting here because it should never be notated in B. Cb is the most resonant key, so for in a piece in B it becomes a transposing instrument
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u/chillinjustupwhat May 10 '26
For a piece in B, I believe all pedals would be engaged creating a brighter tone.
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u/doctorpotatomd May 10 '26
Most orchestral music is written in keys with 0-3 flats/sharps, maybe 0-4. So C, G, D, A, F, Bb, Eb, maybe E and Ab (and the relative minors of those keys ofc).
Strings like keys with few sharps/flats in the key signature because their open strings are natural notes, so e.g. in D major, your most important notes are D A and G (tonic, dominant, subdominant); these are open strings for violins, violas, and cellos. Strings like sharp keys better than flat keys, because you can play A# on the A string but you can't play Ab on the A string, you have play it on the D string. So when the key signature has Ab in it the strings lose an option for playing that note, if that makes sense.
The principle is sort of similar for brass and woodwinds, but also very instrument-dependant. Most woodwinds will have breaks between registers that can be awkward to navigate, and more awkward in some keys that others because the break can end up between important notes. Brass are more comfortable in keys like Bb and F because their instruments are physically keyed to those notes' harmonic series. (Percussion doesn't really mind, although timpani sort of has "breaks" like woodwinds do; each drum has a limited range).
Pros will be able to play in B or any key without breaking a sweat, so it really depends who you're composing for. If using B is important to you and you're composing for a professional ensemble, go for it. If you're gonna get a community or school orchestra to play it, maybe transpose to a different key.
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u/Certainly-Not-A-Bot May 10 '26
Sharps are definitely more common than flats in orchestral music. E is pretty common and I rarely see Ab
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u/JamesFirmere May 10 '26
Ab isn't unheard of. There's Elgar 1, and of course the slow movement of Beethoven 5.
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u/LinkPD May 10 '26
Just want to add a tidbit: most string players avoid open strings like the plague. Many players will adjust their hand positions to be able to have a finger down for open C G D A or E for intonation security and to avoid the super bright sound of open strings to account for balance.
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u/_-oIo-_ May 10 '26
I would never write an orchestra piece in B except I know why. For brass players and even for string players it's hard to intonate, but not impossible. B is a typical Piano Player's key.
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u/khornebeef May 10 '26
Gb and C#/Db are more common in my experience. A big part of this is because piano accompaniment for choir often involves sequentially ascending key modulations ie. C-Db-D and F-Gb-G. Most choir accompaniment doesn't start in Bb since Bb is more a concert band key.
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u/PenaltyPotential8652 May 10 '26
For brass and string is Cb easier to play?
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u/100BottlesOfMilk May 10 '26
No, because much of the difficulty is in the fingering, which wouldn't change. Also, Cb is a more uncommon key, so I'd have more trouble with it personally although that isn't universal
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u/with_the_choir May 10 '26
No, their fingerings are the same, but now they're thinking in 7 flats instead of 5 sharps.
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u/Carol-Ogden May 10 '26
Five sharps. Strings sing in B, winds question their life choices. G# minor same suffering. Write what you love, just prepare for rehearsal mutiny from the pit.
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u/aardw0lf11 May 10 '26
Interesting fact: the coda to Tchaikovsky’s Romeo and Juliet Overture is in B but the harp is written in C flat presumably to make the pedaling easier on the harp.
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u/HaloOfTheSun442 May 10 '26
I'd say it's more likely that sharps and flats are actually different on harp, in that flats sustain more and sharps are more "pinched" because the strings are pulled tighter. As in Db has more resonance and life to it than C# does, as an example.
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u/65TwinReverbRI May 10 '26
This really has to do with historical evolution, both of keys and key signatures, as well as how tuning and instruments evolved.
In the Baroque period, keys were still a new thing, and key signatures had not yet been standardized. There is something called a “Dorian Key Signature”. For example, a piece in C minor would only have 2 flats in the key signature - a throwback to the Dorian Mode which would have still been familiar and known in the early Baroque.
Wind instruments had been based on the Dorian mode as well - their lowest note with all holes closed being a D on a “6 hole pipe” (though instruments built in different lengths would be in different keys). Recorders had additional holes but the 7th hole was often a semitone below D on earlier ones, not a C as in later ones (but that essentially makes it a “C Instrument” in the sense it produces a diatonic C scale when tuned by length to C). But other chromatic notes had to be done by half-holing, or forked-fingering, etc.
You can see this in Clarinets of the Classical Era a bit later - when you see Mozart’s Concerto for Clarinet - it’s in the key of A Major and at the time an A Clarinet was used (and still is by people going for authentic performance practices). That’s because they didn’t have as much chromatic ability as modern ones do, and had to be keyed to the piece.
Realistically, Major and Minor Keys evolved out of the modes, and diatonically that meant C Major and A minor were more common.
There were modes on D, E, F, and G, so as those modes evolved into keys (needing fewer accidentals to do so) those were more common keys.
Dorian and Lydian need 1 flat, Bb to become the relative minor/major keys of D minor and F major - and that practice existed 100s of years before keys.
Phrygian and Mixolydian needed 1 sharp - the F to be raised to F#.
On top of that, in any mode that didn’t already have a half step above or below the tonic, the 7th note was raised - that’s F# in Mixolydian, and C# in Dorian.
Once Major and Minor came along, then G# in A minor.
But Key Signatures really came more from Transposing modes - Dorian got transposed to G - which adds an Eb…
So the FIRST accidentals to appear in music (not in historical order) were Bb, Eb, and F#, C#, and G#
That’s all of them by the way :-)
But people figured out how to transpose them more, and how they got added - outward from C on the circle of 5ths.
Key Signatures with more accidentals just simply hadn’t existed yet - and you could say “didn’t exist” yet really.
And thus are just less common overall.
Another important thing to know though is Keys and Key Signatures are different. Any piece in E Major (which there are more of) that modulated to the key of B, which would be quite common, would be “music in the key of B” that is under-represented in key signature since the original key would be the signature used.
So pieces in B major (or Db major, etc.) are rarer just because they have more accidentals, and it just took a longer time for those to evolve - and why would you need them? The instruments you have have already been designed for “simpler” keys anyway!
So there was no need to write in those keys until music itself evolved to require them.
But there’s also tuning. 12tet was not really common until further into the Baroque and existing organs built earlier would have been tuned to Meantone which limit the keys you can use and modulate too (even the chords you can use!). Other keyboard instruments - which take longer to re-tune, used this as well - and you basically had to “tune to the key” (Lutes could do something similar by moving the gut frets a bit to compensate).
There were definitely early experiments in writing music for and tuning for all 12 keys - Bach’s "Well-Tempered Clavier” is the most famous one but by no means the first or earliest. But that does show a desire for this to be able to happen, and thus tuning evolved into 12tet that now allowed these more distant, less common keys to get used.
But that really didn’t take hold on all instruments until more like the 19th century.
Don’t forget that brass instruments didn’t even have valves yet…they were getting built, or having crooks made, in the most common keys…C, F, Bb, Eb, G, D, A, etc.
It’s worth noting that B major, and Db major, and then F# and Gb, as well as their relative minors, became more common with the rise of the Piano tuned in 12tet.
Fun fact: The fingering for a B Major scale is white key, black key black key, W B B B.
That means your thumbs play the white keys and your longer fingers reach the black keys.
Your hand falls naturally on the keyboard like this!
If you move the B and E of B major to C and F, and keep the black notes - you’re in Db major !!!!
Chopin modulates from B Major to Db major in a number of works - because it “falls under the hands”.
It’s actually “easier to feel where you are” when playing in Gb, or Ebm, etc. because the black keys help guide you - where all white keys and no black keys won’t - it all feels the same. Blind keyboard players tend to prefer those keys. There’s a reason “Superstition” is in Eb minor - where man, playing on guitar is SO much easier in Em!
Finally, there’s probably some observation bias. B is certainly rarer, but that means you’re probably not encountering the pieces that do exist that are in B - so it’s probably more abundant than any of us are aware of, but we’re still talking comparatively rare given the amount of music out there in fewer than 4 accidentals.
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u/m64 May 10 '26
B and similar spicy keys are quite common in later romantic piano pieces. There are a lot of nicely sticking out black keys, so it makes keyboard navigation easier and allows wide chords that would be otherwise impossible. I don't have my notes with me right now, but I can look for some examples later.
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u/PenaltyPotential8652 May 10 '26
That’d be great! In addition to the mentioned ease of chords, B major was/is helpful for me when I was learning piano to identify the degrees of the scale. Visually helpful
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u/ProjjjecT May 10 '26
I found out recently that chopin felt the same way and encouraged beginner pianists to start in that key.
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u/Tokkemon May 10 '26
Tchaikovsky loves to do finale apotheosis stuff in B major. Swan Lake or Pathétique mov 1, for example.
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u/dickleyjones May 10 '26 edited May 10 '26
Writing in B is just fine, players can play it, it's not a big deal. in terms of difficulty, how the music is written is waaaay more significant than which keys are used.
one thing that is important is how that key sounds on each instrument. as a simple example, playing in B means string instruments don't have many open strings to play, and open strings have a different sound than stops. there are reasons to choose either.
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u/65TwinReverbRI May 10 '26
To be fair, as a beginner to intermediate player I haven’t played/learned that many pieces so far.
Part of the observation bias I mentioned.
How does B fair with the other orchestral instruments? Is it a comfortable key to play for them?
I’ll say for my instrument - Guitar - we generally prefer sharp keys up to E major.
B Major is not a key we like so much.
With barre chords and moveable forms we can play in any key really (and could always use a capo or retune) but it’s a rare key for guitar-based music in general.
Again, classical pieces in E major (which are abundant for guitar) may modulate to B, and you just deal with that as it comes.
For modern pop stuff, you might get some power chord stuff, or barre chord stuff, in B.
But it’s far more likely anything sounding in B is on an Eb tuned guitar and played in C on the instrument.
I play “Takin Care of Business” by Bachman Turner Overdrive “in B” - which is really more like B mixolydian/B blues/B key-of-rock because the chords are B - A - E - and that lets me get down to the ope A and E strings for those chords without killing myself barring everything the whole song.
The original is in C IIRC, but it’s actually out a bit - somewhere between C and B
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u/EbbElectrical6635 May 10 '26
As a violin beginner you start playing some sharps as it is way easier for the fingers and you have the open string to guide you back to the base tuning when you are lost. Many more explanations here: https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/17046/why-is-music-for-strings-more-likely-to-be-in-keys-with-sharps
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u/macejankins May 11 '26
B is by far the easiest key on the piano for the hands. If you’re writing for piano, write away! Also us pianists know all our keys, so you can ignore the bitching in the comments.
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u/Dex18Kobold May 13 '26
B maj generally sucks to play in as a wind player (speaking from experience)
but because B maj is uncommon, if you score your piece very well it can sound otherworldly (also speaking from experience)
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u/PenaltyPotential8652 May 13 '26
I don’t know much about wind instruments. Technically, what makes it hard to play B as a wind player?
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u/Dex18Kobold May 13 '26
Lots of sharps (5 in the case of B maj), most wind instruments have weird fingering quirks when playing in those keys.
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u/GaryTheBard May 14 '26
Yeah folks here seem to have answered it pretty well. In a key with 5 sharps it's not exactly beginner friendly to read and play. Guitar is not an orchestral instrument but B isn't an exactly common key there either.
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u/RedeyeSPR May 10 '26
On brass instruments, the lowest B natural is usually really sharp. It’s 7th position on a trombone, which is hard to even reach. It’s a C# on trumpet, and super sharp for most players. On a clarinet, that same note is usually flat and not clear. Knowing all this and the pain of reading unfamiliar key signatures, if you have wind players it’s usually best to not use this key.
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u/khornebeef May 10 '26
It's also problematic on tenor sax and soprano sax. For alto and bari, concert E is the problematic note. They also have issues with their written Ds being sharp, but it doesn't sound as bad as their C# does.
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u/RedeyeSPR May 10 '26
Indeed…everything pitched in Bb has trouble with a B natural. Tuba and euphonium too, but they usually have a compensating 4th valve for this.
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u/Manriki_Kusari May 10 '26
Lots of Chopin pieces are in B because he believes it to be the key most conducive to the natural shape of the hands.
In other instruments however, flat keys are more often used for brass and woodwinds, since they rely on lengthening a tube to lower their pitches. Sharp keys are used often with strings, since they use their fingers to shorten the length of the string. That’s why Tchaik has a lot of string pieces in D, and I would guess there might also be quite a few in B, but I’m not certain.
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u/scrumpadoo May 10 '26
as a trombone player, im not reading all that shit. i know that B/E are the only notes that are natural and the rest are # but 5 sharps feel unnecessary
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u/michaelhuman May 10 '26
This is a fascinating thread. What are the ideal keys then?
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u/FlyingCupcake68 May 13 '26
It’ll be different for each instrument, depending upon partly their natural range and partly their fundamental pitch and the overtone series that goes with it.
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u/aeolian-bonaparte111 May 10 '26
I’m writing a sonata in B major right now, just got done with the exposition and I find the key is very pretty. Anything tuned in Bb will not have a good time with B major lmao
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u/Fake_Chopin May 11 '26
Cecil Forsyth wrote in his orchestration manual “if one’s favourite orchestral key is F-sharp major, then one deserves to suffer”. Lots of sharps are hard to read, especially if you play a Bb instrument which a lot of orchestral players do. Also B is not really a fun key for string players. Personally, I think the players will get over it. Just make sure that any accidentals are as clear and sensible as possible (and include cautionaries!)
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u/sword_fishy May 11 '26
Projofiev’s first string quartet is in B, a very unfriendly key to strings, so they players can’t relax on open strings — instead, by fingering every note, it keeps the tension up throughout the piece. So in that case it’s a demand to the musicians and setting an immediate technicality bar. haha gnarly, right?
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u/FlyingCupcake68 May 13 '26
One of my music school piano classmates said that when she was at her piano bar gig in town, and she knew that nobody was listening, she would challenge herself to play tunes in difficult keys, and B was the example she gave.
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u/Initial_Magazine795 May 14 '26
Bad key for non-pro winds/brass, especially for intermediate groups with no access to A clarinets and students unused to lots of sharps. For pros or good amateurs it's fine, and the major lit pieces do contain sections/movements in B sometimes, but you'll (almost) never see a school-level piece in B major, it'd never sell.
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u/PenaltyPotential8652 May 14 '26
For amateur - advanced, what is probably the safest most comfortable key for winds/brass and all other orchestral instruments?
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u/Initial_Magazine795 May 14 '26
If you're writing for advanced amateurs, then it's more a matter of picking a key that suits the range and technical needs of the specific melody/accompaniment/ornamentation—pretty much any key is playable, but any given passage may work better or worse in a certain key for any given instrument. It's very different than piano—score study is your friend! Can you post an example of what you've written?
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u/PenaltyPotential8652 May 14 '26
I haven’t written any orchestral things yet. Just experimenting and getting my feet wet if you will. In school and learning lots of theory etc.
Just want to consider playable/comfortable keys when I do start writing.
Is there a top five ranking if you will? I know it depends on many factors and situations, but generally speaking would be great!
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u/Tim-oBedlam May 14 '26
Interestingly, even though B major is friendly to the pianist's fingers, there just aren't that many well-known piano pieces in B major. Debussy's Pagodes isn't really in a diatonic key but it's in B major if it's in anything.
Many more in F# major: Chopin's Barcarolle, Liszt's Benediction de Dieu dans le Solitude, Beethoven's Piano Sonata op. 78, Scriabin's 4th Sonata, and others.
And D-flat major is more common still: Chopin's Berceuse, Nocturne op. 27/2, "Raindrop" Prelude, Liszt's Harmonies du Soir and Un Sospiro, Debussy's Clair de Lune.
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u/Klutzy_Fix4506 May 14 '26
Learn your scales! B Major is the easiest key to play in, and it’s not explainable. You need to get a scale chart or book with the correct fingerings and really take the time to master them. You should not ever half to be reading the key signature sharps or flats in a tonal work. People want their to be shortcuts but absolutely mastering your scales is the shortcut!
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u/PenaltyPotential8652 May 14 '26
On the way. Got all the major scales and working on all the minors/harmonic at the moment!
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u/elpaco_7 May 10 '26
I don’t use it because I compose on piano and I hate playing in that key. I assume it’s the same for others.
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u/PenaltyPotential8652 May 10 '26
It’s my favorite key to play on piano. Why do you hate playing in that key?
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u/elpaco_7 May 10 '26
I just have the least amount of experience I guess. I can do it no problem, it feels weird in my hands.
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u/PenaltyPotential8652 May 10 '26
Fair enough. It’s lovely once you’re comfortable with it. Aside from the tactile experience, I love how visually pleasing the scale degrees are. Plus, it’s only better/more comfortable in my opinion than Db.
If there is a downside, the only thing would be that typically you start with your 4 on B in your L hand when playing the scale, but reverts to 5 thereafter. Ofc you can start with 5 too.
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u/elpaco_7 May 10 '26
The only time I end up in B is if I’ve somehow transposed into it from a modulation. At that point I’ll usually just change the original key to avoid it.
Typing all this out as made me realize I should stop avoiding it and start using it more.
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u/PenaltyPotential8652 May 10 '26
I hear you. One of the keys I typically avoid is F. It’s a bit boring and not very comfortable for me to play.
However, F is a tritone away from B. Or, opposite the circle of fifths. Learning the most opposite key from the one I’m most comfortable in is something that intrigues and inspires me.
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u/elpaco_7 May 10 '26
See I love the key of F. Early on, I did most of my composition in C, F, and G, because I’m basic AF. Even now, if I’m learning something by ear or in the early stages of writing, I’ll play it in C until I learn it, then I’ll transpose it.
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u/PenaltyPotential8652 May 10 '26
Based on the comments in this thread, I think I’m gonna need to do a lot of transposing…
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u/65TwinReverbRI May 10 '26
Aside from the tactile experience,
Ha, just mentioned that in my response.
If there is a downside, the only thing would be that typically you start with your 4 on B in your L hand when playing the scale, but reverts to 5 thereafter. Ofc you can start with 5 too.
I didn’t mention this part but alluded to it - but to be fair, we don’t “just play scales” - so our thumb (or whatever finger) isn’t always on the white keys, but the tactile issue is still there - it “falls under the hands” well.
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u/solongfish99 May 10 '26
Reading 5 sharps is annoying. Reading 7 sharps is even more annoying, which Bb instruments have to do in the key of B. If you want to write in B, though, go for it.