r/custommagic • u/orchismantid • Jul 22 '26
Discussion Gwyn, Lord of Cinder
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u/orchismantid Jul 22 '26
Going for a flavorful [[Lich]]-esque effect but unsure of how to balance it properly. Edit: forgot to mention, also unsure whether the life loss replacement effect would cancel out setting the player's life to 1. Any advice welcomed
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u/smugles Jul 22 '26
It would cancel it out you’d have to make the life loss a cast trigger. Or reword the last ability to only care if you lose life less than than 1. The last ability also needs to say if instead of whenever. I
“If you life would be reduced to less than 1, sacrifice a monotone creature instead.
These lich effects tend to also cause you to lose the game when they leave play. But it’s not uncommon for them to have hexproof and indestructible.11
u/Zephrol Jul 23 '26
It already gives itself indestructible, its a non-token creature lol
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u/smugles Jul 23 '26
I know i was saying they could also hexproof.
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u/Zephrol Jul 23 '26
Tbf [[lich's mastery]] only has hexproof, and [[lich]] doesnt even have either one lol.
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u/smugles Jul 23 '26
Tbf mastery is an enchantment and lich was printed before hex proof or indestructible existed lol.
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u/Venaeris Jul 25 '26
To be fair, Lich was printed the year before the first Shroud card came out. They could have put that on Lich hypothetically
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u/MegAzumarill Jul 22 '26
As it is currently worded, the lose life doesnt work because it isnt a replacement effect. If it was a replacement effect, it would not prevent you from being set to 1 life.
"If you would lose life, sacrifice a nontoken creature instead, if you can't, exile this creature."
The last line makes a token copy of this function without making you immune to damage, though you could remove it.
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u/BadSuccessful2391 Jul 22 '26
Formatting note (indestructible is often noted as the keyword of the creature, then applies to everything else to be faster to grok):
Vigilance, indestructible
As Gwyn enters, your life total becomes 1.
Other nontoken creatures you control have indestructible.
Some gameplay holes that could be exploited:
Manifesting or stifling Gwyn's ETB trigger prevents you from changing your life total (just something to note)
An effect like [[Assault Suit]] prevents you from sacrificing Gwyn. Losing Gwyn doesn't lose you the game, so it's just something to note.
Otherwise, Gwyn should have some means of having you lose the game if you want to really resemble a Lich effect. I'll also note that when he enters, you lose life as you're set down to 1 -- which means Gwyn can immediately trigger the edict effect when he enters. Not sure if this was intended or not.
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u/orchismantid Jul 22 '26
Thanks, really helpful comment.
My understanding was that "as it enters" doesn't create an ETB trigger as opposed to "when it enters", but I'm far from an expert. I don't want that life loss to be changed by the edict replacement effect either, so maybe it should be a cast trigger? That would make it pretty brutal to get countered, though.
If players can get him into an Assault Suit, I think that's fine tbh.
I was considering having him set you to 0 life and adding the Lich "you don't lose the game for having 0 or less life" line but a. I prefer to keep rules text brief if possible and b. I think he has harsh enough downsides without having you instantly lose the game from an [[unsummon]] or whatever, and I think this is a little more elegant tbh
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u/bioplay Jul 23 '26
You are correct about the wording of "As ~ enters" vs "When ~ enters", which is in fact how the current oracle text of the original [[Lich]] is worded. The only reason that doesn't cement it immediately for me is that Lich only prevents damage, not general loss of life, so I'm not sure if this works as you intended, but Idk why it wouldn't. Something else that should maybe be pointed out is that I think this currently replaces life payments with creature sacrifices? I'm not sure if that makes the card more or less powerful, but definitely something to be aware of. Could always make the replacement effect "If a source you don't control would cause you to lose life..." though that is functionally different. Whichever way you decide to go, the replacement effect needs to start with "If" not "Whenever" because Magic syntax dictates that an ability that starts with "Whenever" is a triggered ability that will use the stack, which I don't think is the intention here.
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u/Zephrol Jul 23 '26
If you make it a cast trigger though, do remember that if hes countered, it still hits you with ability, with no upside.
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u/MJWhitfield86 Jul 22 '26
It seems that it won’t apply as replacement effects from permanents entering the battlefield only apply if they effect that permanent specifically.
Relevant rules text:
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c-d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities that would apply to it once it's on the battlefield, and continuous effects that already exist and would apply to the permanent.1
u/greeklemoncake Jul 25 '26
I think the best fix, especially being a reference to the card Lich, is to use the wording from the OG - have the replacement be off damage, not life loss. Though, this means that you'll have to sac for each creature that hits you in combat, rather than just once if it's life loss (multiple instances of damage, one instance of life loss); to prevent this so you only sac one nontoken creature per combat (ignoring double strike), it would have to be something like "if you would be dealt damage by one or more sources, instead [...]"
Also, your wording is kind of halfway between a trigger and a replacement effect, magic card never uses "whenever" (which is a trigger) with "would" (because that's a replacement effect word), it should always be "if... would... instead"
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u/13EDO Jul 22 '26
this is cool but probably too weak imo ? hard to have a lot of nontoken sac fodder. nice design tho
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u/ShadowWalker2205 Jul 22 '26
Same thought the payoff ain't worth the life lost and the mandatory saccing
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u/issanm Jul 22 '26
Seems like it would be a busted combo to me there's a few ways to trade/equal life totals, also you can just heal
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u/OblivionTheTraveller Existing Jul 22 '26
It says you can't gain life.
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u/issanm Jul 22 '26
You're right forget the healing just win based off the insane combos then
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u/OblivionTheTraveller Existing Jul 22 '26
I suppose [[Near Death Experience]] might be the best way to win this.
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u/orchismantid Jul 22 '26
genuinely please elaborate on combos
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u/issanm Jul 23 '26
There have been tons posted in this thread alone trading life totals, setting life totals to = yours, "if you have 1 life win the game"
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u/orchismantid Jul 22 '26
Thanks! And yeah, im not sure about his power level. Originally had him as a 6/6 but that just felt a little overkill for turn 4 or earlier, idk. recursion like [[Nine-Lives Familiar]] would help a lot with viability
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u/MountedCombat Jul 23 '26
Black is the mono color for graveyard recursion, with bg and wb both having solid presences in the mechanic. As an example using my favorite recursion card, [[Reassembling Skeleton]] is 2 mana instant speed self recursion. With this custom card out, that becomes a 2 mana "negate one instance of life loss."
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u/FloSTEP Jul 23 '26
I agree, it is in the best two colors for reanimating nontoken creatures. A lot of people here are saying it’s underpowered, but I think it’s very polar, dependent on your opponent’s ability to deal direct damage or remove it without destroying it. In the right matchup, this card could be extremely oppressive. “Dies to (insert removal)” only goes so far.
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u/ElPared Jul 22 '26
He should be a Zombie God imo, just feels in-line with the Dark Souls universe (can’t remember if he was undead or not, but pretty sure he was).
Bro feels pretty strong just from having a [[bloodghast]] and any way to trigger landfall, but overall I think he’s really well designed. Idk how you’d do it, but it’d be funny if you also built in a way to cheese him with parries haha
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u/orchismantid Jul 22 '26
"whenever Gwyn becomes blocked by an equipped creature, he loses indestructible until end of turn" lmao
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u/ElPared Jul 23 '26
“Whenever Gwyn blocks or becomes blocked by a creature with first strike, that creature gains wither until end of turn. Untap it. After this phase there is an additional combat phase.”
Way too wordy though haha
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u/reaperfan Jul 23 '26
(can’t remember if he was undead or not, but pretty sure he was).
Souls lore nerd here. Gwyn is not undead, he is merely long-lived.
The shortest simplification of what's going on is that all life in the game's world came from what is called The First Flame. While The First Flame is physically shown as a massive fire, it's closer in scope to the Big Bang - a burst of energy so massive it literally rewrote the laws of reality when it happened. Gwyn's power comes from having siphoned a massive portion of The First Flame's power into himself as his own life force/soul (whether he did this on purpose or it was a lucky accident at the time of the Flame's creation is unknown).
That said, Gwyn's literal life force was the same energy that essentially started the universe. Gwyn was effectively immortal, at least in that he did not age. As long as the energy of The First Flame existed, he would live (theoretically he could be killed through force, but having absorbed the most power from the Flame he was also the strongest being alive by a significant margin and so that possibility was unlikely). The problem was that The First Flame was, quite literally, a flame. Like all fires it burned on fuel and as that fuel got consumed it fades over time. When Gwyn noticed the Flame fading, he tried to come up with ways to prolong it and keep it alive so that his own power wouldn't wane.
All of his attempts ended in failure, so he resorted to the one thing he was sure would work - he would go back to the source of the Flame and offer his own soul as fuel to keep it going. Given that his soul was one of the most powerful and most directly fed from the original Flame, this worked but again only as a temporary measure, prolonging the Flame's life somewhere in the range from a few more centuries to a few more millenia.
By the time the game starts, Gwyn's soul itself that is serving as fuel for the Flame is running out. By the time you find him at the end he's still alive and has never actually died, he's just spent so long literally burning his own life force that he's been reduced to barely a husk of himself.
That said, making him a Zombie would actually be in direct counter to the Dark Souls universe. The undead were a very specific faction that Gwyn was in direct opposition to, and trying to stop them from coming to power was the primary reason he even wanted to keep the First Flame alive.
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u/orchismantid Jul 22 '26
also no, I dont think Gwyn is technically "undead" in the same way that humans are. iirc he burned his great soul to rekindle the First Flame so he's kind of Hollow? if gods can be hollow? but he hasn't died
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u/ElPared Jul 22 '26
I mean, technically hollows are zombies even if they haven’t died, so I think it still works lol
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u/Ok-Finish-2064 Jul 23 '26
There’s a possibility that hollows are dark souls untainted by soul of light, how humans were meant to exist before Gwyn started meddling.
That would make them not-zombies, they would be like some kind of invincible amoeba. No brain but working as nature intended
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u/ElPared Jul 23 '26
Eh, you could be right, I just really like the idea of Gwyn being a zombie for some reason haha
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u/MyNameWasDecember Jul 22 '26
Why no red mana cost? He is pretty fiery
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u/orchismantid Jul 22 '26
He's just not mechanically/thematically red imo
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Jul 23 '26
[deleted]
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u/Draegan199 Jul 22 '26
Random ruling question: what would happen if an effect prevents you from sacrificing anything? Do you die to life loss because you can't sac? Or just does it just not actually make you sac but still survive?
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u/Big-Message-6982 Jul 23 '26
Can't beats can, so afaik you sacrifice something instead of losing life, then a big ol CAN'T makes you not do anything.
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u/Roofie_Laced_Dildo Jul 24 '26
Its worded like a triggered ability and a replacement effects.
If its an triggered ability, you lose the game before the ability even goes off in any circumstance.
If its a replacement effect, its drastically in your favor as you won't sacrifice the creature nor lose life!
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u/Churrotree22 Jul 23 '26
We need a dark souls universes beyond. The only one other than dnd and lotr to actually fit the vibe of mtg (I know they are both Hasbro)
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u/orchismantid Jul 23 '26
100% agree. I'm obsessed with the series and im trying to design a full set rn
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u/ZoldLyrok Jul 24 '26
Miyazaki apperantly does play Magic Arena, he stated its one of the few games he has time to play outside work.
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u/AAAAAAAAAAH_12 Jul 23 '26
It should say "If" instead of "Whenever", because the former refers to a replacement effect while the latter refers to a triggered ability, and triggered abilities are not put onto the stack before the game checks if you're dead or not
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u/TheVermillionJacket Jul 23 '26
I know. I know color pie stuffs. But it feels wrong seeing Gwyn have a black identity. Like he is so afraid of the dark, he is the God of Light, he doesn’t even black keys play on his piano theme. Not a complaint, just an unfortunate translation.
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u/TheFattestNinja Jul 23 '26
Flavour wise it should prob give persist rather than indestructible (going hollow). Also I'd tie the ability to a special token that is passed on to the creature killing it (inherit the flame). That opens you up to funny shenanigans where you can redirect direct damage to you to it to pass it on and set opponent to 1. But cool initial ideas
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u/MakeYou_LOL Jul 22 '26
[[Mister Negative]]
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u/EyesOfSteel-EOS Jul 22 '26
exchanging life totals still counts as "gaining" or "loosing" life for the sake of cards that track it. Your life total would still be 1, but you could bring someone else down to one. although you can do the same thing with [[axis of mortality]] or [[profane transfusion]]
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u/Tiberium600 Jul 22 '26
Does this lose to [[Skullcrack]]?
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u/Jack_Empty Jul 22 '26
I do not believe so. It is not preventing damage, just changing how you take it.
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u/orchismantid Jul 22 '26
Not afaik, you still take damage but don't lose life (damage causes loss of life)
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u/IDKSomethingHappy Jul 22 '26
I think giving him hexproof will be good because imagine dropping this guy and than somebody just swords to plowshares+ swings with one flyer/horseman/fear/unblockable 1/1
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u/zzgamer11 Jul 23 '26
You could collapse 3 of the effects into 1 pretty easily and make it work you intended way with only a slight difference in gameplay that would rarely come up:
"If your life total would change, it becomes 1 instead, then sacrifice a non-token creature."
This way the sac trigger and life gain prevention are rolled together. Makes the card cleaner to read.
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u/Darkon47 Jul 23 '26
This change means if you have any effect like extort or blood artist, you sac a creature when you would gain a life too. and it doesnt set you to 1 on entry. Its similar, but meaningdully different
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u/zzgamer11 Jul 23 '26
It is meaningfully different, but blood artist would essentially be a semi-infinite play that would continually force sacs until everything was gone.
It definitely isn't the same, but it lets the intent of the design still work while making the card less wordy woth some real potential shenanigans.
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u/AnOldAntiqueChair Jul 23 '26
He needs a tap ability where you can sac him to set your life total to like, 10. Anything to buy just a little more time..
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u/EnvironmentOwn7442 Jul 23 '26
You should make one where when it entered your life total becomes 1 and when it dies you either gain your original life total or everyone else life total becomes 1 as well.
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u/Ok-Employee-8123 Jul 23 '26
I'd love to fight him in commander. Gwyn has no idea of the fuckery that is toxril
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u/Nihaly_ Jul 23 '26
I love the flavour, but the colours I kinda despise, he is known for using fire and lightning and he doesn't have a red pip :(
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u/corrupted_commoner Jul 23 '26
This plus [[Assault Suit]] just makes you unable to lose until it is exiled.
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u/quayo Jul 23 '26
The fact that you only sac 1 permanent no matter the amount of life lost might be breakable. Other lich effect are usually penalty per life lost
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u/SaltedFisch Jul 23 '26
Bruh i really gotta reupload the ornstein and smough cards a buddy of mine and me did
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u/StrangeBuffalo6267 Jul 23 '26
Honestly I’d give it first strike because gywn stars the battle by leaping at you. And maybe a way to prevent leaving the battlefield easily?
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u/hexitelle Jul 23 '26
Really cool, I don't know if the nontoken clause is necessary. This is a pretty crazy downside
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u/GamerExecChef Jul 24 '26
Certainly an extremely flavorful card. I'm not sure MTG has printed a card with this much flavor in years
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u/ZoldLyrok Jul 24 '26
I would make it into an effect, where you instead gain "age of dark" counters every turn , which make you lose life equal to the amount of counters on Gwyn, but you can sacrifice legendary cretures to avoid mustering said counters.
Or maybe make it an emblem Gwyn creates when he enters or something.
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u/Spinningguy Jul 25 '26
I think its should be white red, since Gwyn is absolutely terrified of the age of dark to the point even his them doesn't use any black keys on the piano.
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u/orchismantid Jul 25 '26
idk if anyone will read this but to all the people saying that Gwyn should include red in his color identity, I respectfully disagree. Gwyn in his prime, when he waged war against the archdragons? Absolutely Boros. The version of Gwyn that we see in DS1? The guy who has dedicated his entire existence to keeping his crumbling order in stasis, who cursed all of humanity with undeath in an attempt to sustain that order, whose loyal servants seek to support him by creating a neverending cycle of sacrifices to stall the inevitable coming of the age of dark? I don't see him as thematically or mechanically red whatsoever. "He uses fire and he's afraid of the dark" notwithstanding. Anyways this is a very silly thing for me to have thought about this much but here I am
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u/bigweight93 Jul 23 '26
So you [[shoot the sheriff]] him and then win
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u/onering20 Jul 23 '26
He has indestructible
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u/bigweight93 Jul 23 '26
So you [[boomerang basics]] [[into the floodmaw]] [[bounce off]] him and win
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u/St0neRav3n Jul 22 '26
I like the flavour a lot.