r/goth • u/GothicaAndRoses • Jun 24 '26
Discussion Has "Alt" gone mainstream?
https://youtu.be/0X_VTq60G5k?is=yXJvxmv596swhk9l184
u/Hellebore-TheKnight Jun 24 '26
Maybe alt in its aesthetic appeal, but the alt community as a whole seems to have remained the same. Festivals, clubs, even online spaces dedicated to the community and camaraderie appear to be doing fine on the basis alone that the those who see “alt” as cosplay keep it like that and don’t put much effort than consumerism.
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u/Quietuus Jun 24 '26
The first time 'alt' went mainstream Ian Curtis was still alive.
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u/ReallyGlycon Post-Punk, Goth Rock Jun 24 '26
Exactly. Alternatively styles have been mainstream for a looooong time.
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u/Hellebore-TheKnight Jun 24 '26
It feels like the more corporations realized that the idea of alternative sounds like faux-revolution for first worlders was the more they began draining it of its origins. Most people want to be “alt” but now it’s been more accessible with as little energy involved and if you have social media and can become an “influencer”, you can put as little heart into it and reap money from an audience.
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u/bunker_man Jun 25 '26
A lot of alt people aren't ready for that conversation still. Capitalism loved it since its a way for people to feel rebellious without fundamentally challenging anything about society that the bourgeoisie actually care about.
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u/pmw3505 Jun 25 '26
Say it louder for the people in the back!!! You aren’t rebelling against anything if you’re just wearing the style without living the purpose for it!!
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u/MouthofMithridacy Jun 25 '26
Im just waiting for gucchi or someone to make a literal 800 buck "burn corpo shit" T-shirt and having to watch it be a massive selling hit for a month
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u/Babibackribz Jun 25 '26
Right. And then ‘Alt’ was HUGE in the 90’s too. Fashion is cyclical so it makes sense.
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u/LARRYVOND13 Jun 24 '26
I agree with this but in the nicest non-disrespectful way possible, I try not to watch this stuff.
Main reason, I do and the algorithim decides I want to see the larpers. Despite marking not interested, I'll just get some gooner accounts promoting it.
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Jun 24 '26
[deleted]
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u/LARRYVOND13 Jun 24 '26
"...and spitting in people's drinks for some reason" - also somehow.
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u/Ubblebungus Jun 25 '26
i myself am not goth (...yet?) but i do have mad respect for the culture as a metalhead. everytime i see shit like that i die inside just a little.
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u/GatherAsher Jun 28 '26
Goth is just a label. It won't feel right until you're past the point of it being stamped on you, I promise.
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u/Grndls_mthr Jun 24 '26
If I knew I could make money from filming myself grocery shopping I would have lmao
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u/Daealis Goth Jun 25 '26
Same reason I don't watch anything with AI on the title. Because it's the hottest buzzword right now, and if you watch "The enshittification of the goth subculture: Artists increasingly using AI despite blowback" today, tomorrow your recommendations will be filled with "You won't believe this top5 list of what happens to your life when you give in to the AI assisted tools!"
You watch a single video featuring The Goth House Onlyfans subscription beggers, and tomorrow you have them recommended through a dozen other "analyses".
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u/LARRYVOND13 Jun 25 '26
Got recommended stuff today uggggh I know it's my comment and should have known better.
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u/Lost-Soft-8913 Jun 24 '26
No actually. I watched a very similar video not too long ago and the very next day my recommendations were "goth" e-girl thirst traps.
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u/LARRYVOND13 Jun 24 '26
You pretty much just said what I said but with different wording.
" I do and the algorithim decides I want to see the larpers"
i.e. when I watch the video.
"I'll just get some gooner accounts promoting it."
They promote thirst traps.
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u/Catharsis_Cat Wannabe Anne Gwish Jun 24 '26
It went mainstream a long time ago and it gets tiring seeing people make a big fuss about it still. If you want something untouched by corporations you are going to have to do something new and stay ahead of the curve, either a totally new scene or a huge shakeup in an existing one.
You aren't going to bring the old days back by trying to emulate them. You can still enjoy goth, you can still keep your local spaces and scenes safe and healthy but you have to understand what you can and can't control. Black clothes/makeup and/or liking Bauhaus isn't always going to be the best indicator of someone's personal values nowadays.
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u/Cyphomeris Jun 26 '26
I mean, "mainstream" is a bit too strong a word for it; as the other commenter says, bullying for looking alternative was a huge (and often violent) problem despite some aspects being adopted.
That being said, I certainly see fewer teenagers dressed alternatively around these days. There seems to be less of a connection between music taste and fashion choices compared to, say, two decades ago.
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u/NeraSoleil Jun 24 '26
Tired of these videos. The answer is yes AND this is NOT the first time it’s happened. Also happened in the mid-90s, then again in the mid 2010s.
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u/CementCemetery Batty as Hell Jun 25 '26
Everything ebbs and flows, it’s cyclical. What was old is new again.
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u/NobodySpecial2000 Jun 24 '26
Spend less time fighting culture wars and more time listening to Rosegarden Funeral Party. You will be a lot happier and will be doing your part to make the goth community better.
This shit is so tedious and so asinine.
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u/Urist_McPencil Metal; friend to Goth Jun 24 '26
Full disclosure, I'm not goth, but I'm a metalhead friend to the community; I think what's happening to the goths is a lot like what happened to the hippies. A small counter-culture community which steadily grew, until growing so big that business interests found it a worthwhile market to exploit. With mainstream support, the original ideals and values become diluted, becoming a part of the culture it once rejected.
It happened to the hippies, it happened to the punks, it happened to the metalheads, and it's happening to the goths. Fucking sucks, man.
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u/intmartial Post-Punk, Goth Rock, Deathrock Jun 24 '26
the eternal annoying debate. better to not watch this stuff and just focus on you and what you enjoy about the music you listen to, the clothes you wear, the things you make, et cetera
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u/baordog Jun 24 '26
This is mostly phenomenon on instagram. Out in meat space goths are the same as they ever were. If goth is so mainstream why is nearly every goth club in the north east dead?
Comparing goth night at a club nyc versus a dubstep or dnb rave I think goth still looks *pretty darn niche.*
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u/sinuendo Jun 24 '26
“If goth is so mainstream why is nearly every goth club dead”
Exactly. Because the insta goth crowd listens to mainstream music.
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u/ArgentEyes Jun 24 '26
People are still going to dubstep events?
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u/Unlikely_Day_9197 Jun 25 '26
Tbf the sound has still been somewhat evolving and changing too. 2020s dubstep sounds different from 2010s and pre 2010s dubstep. Though personally I feel that sense of creativity and community with raves has been slowly getting replaced by clubbing mentality but that may likely be a more local thing
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u/Cineswimmer Goth Jun 24 '26
Anyone else getting burnt out on the “culture?” Between the AI art classic and modern bands have embraced, TikTok goths, poseurs at the club (admittedly, nothing new there), somewhat of a stale sound musically….
Idk man, I just want to dress how I want and dance to actual goth music.
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u/MrBrxghtside Jul 31 '26
every new band that gets recommended to me sounds the same now, everyone is making that 2000s myspace metalcore sound, with the gritty shitty camera visuals, its rare i come across a band that sounds different. At least back then there was multiple sounds to choose from, now its all too similar
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u/djasonwright Jun 24 '26
This cow puts together great videos (and Ro is great at presenting them), but yeah. I've been a closeted goth since the 80s, and this feels like it comes around again and again - and probably happens to every subculture in some way.
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u/DirtysouthCNC Jun 24 '26
Once again, who gives a shit?
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u/sinuendo Jun 24 '26
Gatekeepers. And proof why it’s not always a bad thing. Constructive criticism never hurts.
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u/DirtysouthCNC Jun 24 '26
Yeah but...who gives a shit? Literally who fucking cares what other people are doing? Are you into this stuff because you like it for its own sake, or because you wanna feel special and cool and alternative for no other reason than because it's "alt"? In other words, are you "goth" because you're performative and wanna be Special and the dummies on social media are being dummies on social media make you less Special and Cool, or are you "goth" because you're just into this stuff?
It's just such a stupid, shallow thing to spend your time and effort on thinking about.
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u/Teddy_Funsisco Jun 24 '26
Social media is how people are communicating and finding all these subcultures to begin with because social media is integral in so many people's lives now.
I'm glad to be old enough to not give a shit, but who knows how different my teenage years would've been had social media existed.
I do think that as a whole people need to spend less time online and more time just out in the world because it's a better way to get grounded back to some sort of reality after seeing post after post about what's "goth", what's "alt", what's everything that people are into and chasing clicks.
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u/DirtysouthCNC Jun 25 '26
Sure but like there's idiots everywhere. What does any of it matter? We scared of "posers" or "fake" goths or something? We worried people won't understand the subculture? Why does any of it matter?
It doesn't. Gatekeeping for an illusory wall.
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u/Teddy_Funsisco Jun 25 '26
Calm down, Nietszche, everything doesn't have to matter to you personally.
Why are you wasting your valuable don't-give-a-shit time on a video you don't even like?
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u/DirtysouthCNC Jun 25 '26
I think you're totally misunderstanding my point. I didn't even watch the video lol. See my prior post in this thread - if we're part of the whole shtick because we dig it and it resonates with us, then what does it matter if there's "fake goths" or whatever stupid boogeyman?
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u/ssjr13 The Sisters of Mercy Jun 25 '26
Being proud of being a gatekeeper is some chronically online shit.
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u/magicalgirlvalkyrie Jun 25 '26
Who cares. Like honestly, it’s a tale as old as tome and people deserve to feel good about how they look. Hopefully, this is the gateway to the music and culture over all. If not that’s fine life is hard. Let people have things.
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u/new_sensation656 Jun 24 '26
I always feel weird because I don’t fit the goth aesthetic because I’m a country boy from middle of nowhere America. But I fucking love the original bands like the cure, bahaus, siouxie ect. My mom had all there original vinyls growing up because she was in college when they were all coming out. But oddly a lot of “ alt “ have never heard of them? And I’d think these were as mainstream goth as it gets
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u/Hazel-Oliver Jun 25 '26
You're a dream, never change 🖤
You're also correct those artists are very mainstream goth (still good tho)
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u/averagesayorifan Jun 24 '26
would kinda be cool if social media didnt exist so people would find alternative styles more organically rather than curated for you with an algorithm. well i am a bit hypocritical since i have literally been thru that, but at least i dont use social media that much. idk just thinking out loud here .
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u/Karkava Jun 24 '26
And I would like to thank social media for finding me D&D friends. My mother was able to find them because they were looking for dogs to walk alongside. And as luck would have it, they also sail and are also gamers. So they're fast friends for the both of us.
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u/averagesayorifan Jun 24 '26
true! i wont say that social media is all evil since there are numerous positives for it, i would not support a social media ban or anything, its a very good tool for everyone, but obviously there are many downsides as well and i was just thinking about how it would be like if we found alt subcultures like back in ye olden days. especially since im in other more niche subcultures too other than goth
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u/AnkuSnoo Jun 26 '26
I was just talking to a friend about when the internet was still fun and personal in the early 00s before it just became a storefront. When people made personal websites (actual websites not substacks) about their interests or when blogs actually had personal writing not think pieces to be shared on LinkedIn. She was telling me about finding some webrings, like new ones, so maybe it’s coming back.
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u/Karkava Jun 25 '26
No. But we do seem to overblow the villany as if it were unsalvagable despite the corproations that manage these websites and the grifters left to thrive on them.
It's almost as if we're afraid to admit that people are the problem.
Probably the only website I can say is truly evil is Truth Social.
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u/FeistyDirection Jun 24 '26
Alt has gone 1/2 mainstream but its not the first time, look at how popular nu metal looks were in the late 90s-early 2000s [mall goth] look at how popular post hardcore was in the mid-late 2000s [emo/scene] even late 2000s to early 20teens with hipster stuff. All of it is not as underground as we'd like to think it was. The only difference now is that kids will mix & match things from different subcultures in ways that make us old heads cringe cause its not accurate recreation, and the kids these days maybe dont care about the music as much. Back then we were doing fresh and current stuff and now its all about ppl in their 20s dressing the way ppl in their 30s dressed when they were teens. It is a bit weird and not great but its not exactly the epidemic we say it is.
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u/AnkuSnoo Jun 26 '26
I think a lot about how young people today get to mix and match and genres aren’t so fixed anymore. We bought physical albums and that was all we had to listen to until we could go out and buy more. Going on a family vacation and having to make the tough decision about which CDs deserved a spot in the CD wallet. Now, streaming means you can casually check out one song by a band or save every album they ever made and it costs you the same. There’s not the same commitment, and I don’t mean that in a denigrating way, because this generation also doesn’t have the same ability to own things as we did. Everything is rented or a subscription now. Although physical media seems to be making a comeback.
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u/bunker_man Jun 25 '26
Are we in the 90s? Alt went mainstream so long ago that its considered from a bygone era now. Stuff like "punk" doesn't make most people think obscure, it makes them think of their older siblings or dad listening to music decades ago.
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u/Gwendolinn Jun 25 '26
Alt went mainstream in like...1989-1991, when alternative music became more popular, and then came the big wave of Hot Topic mall goths soon after. Hot Topic being founded in 1989, of course.
It's been trendy for a long, long, long time.
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u/Fuerto203 Jun 24 '26
Yes and no.
The aesthetics of alt communities has become popular in the mainstream but this is far from the first time this has happened and it will cycle out again and then later on become popular again.
It's also a no though because the core of what makes those alt communities alternative, the music and the community itself, is still very niche.
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u/DivaMissZ Siouxsie and the Banshees Jun 26 '26
Every ten years, this happens. Goth becomes "mainstream." Goths cry "It 'tis the end. our community will be ruined!" And after a year or so, the thrift shops and consignment stores get an influx of Gothy fashions and people on the street once again tell you "It's not Halloween!"
The wheel spins, things change, things never change
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u/edasto42 Jun 24 '26
I knew the term went full mainstream when the Linkin park loving coworker started using that term to describe himself.
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u/Choice-Lawfulness978 Jun 24 '26
I hope what happened in the 2020s with goth serves as a lesson: "gatekeeping" is the condition for collective identity.
T. Social anthropologist.
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u/ArgentEyes Jun 24 '26
Sorry but Mick Mercer was rebutting this one in 1991, pointing out that ‘goth’ had already outlived its peer subcultures by several years and was still going strong
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u/Repulsive-Tea6974 Jun 24 '26 edited Jun 24 '26
If you could buy it in the mall 35 years ago it was mainstream.
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u/Colombianfella Jun 25 '26 edited Jun 25 '26
No. Go outside and count how many people look alt to you. At the same time count the number of non-alt people. Most people judge based on their social media algorithms shoving alt people and culture in their face, you see what? Maybe 12 different alt people, and the same face 2 or three times. Now I want you to picture this. Think back to any time you’ve gone to any alt related concert or music show not in your local area. How many new faces did you see? 40, 50, maybe even 100? Put this all together, it isn’t necessarily some crazy massive change, it’s just you see more people on social media, that it seems as if everyone’s alt now!
And yeah, of course it seems like theres more alt people about nowadays. Thats a given with social media, it’s more open to your average kid, I’m sure there were plenty of kids from some fuckoff town in the Shetlands in the 90s who haven’t moved past the lute who would’ve been some flavour of alt had they been exposed to the culture. And finally, this just follows a trend of trying to call back to the 90s/ 000s. Because those were genuinely just better times. People were doing well (or better than now at least) financially, things were less expensive, there was a huge sense of general hope and wide eyed dreaming for the future. Thats all gone now. Prices are tight. Seemingly every rich or powerful person is either a pedo or actively trying to destroy you and your job or future job. Higher education means fuckall in many cases and most people need to stay with and share rent and bills with another just to stay alive. We are in a world where one of the worlds most powerful nations is controlled by a demented, narcissistic, immoral, paedophilic, perverted, racist, misogynist, homophobic, xenophobic and almost every other damn prejudice in the book. So yeah, kids of today want to relive a time which is often idealised by millennials as a time of general hope and progression, because we’re trapped in a time of regression and hatred, and what better ideal to cling to than alt ideals? Left wing, expressive and just truly being yourself, alongside being a thing so entrenched in the cultural blend of the ‘good old days’ of before, so we can try pretend we’re not stuck in this disgusting world we live in.
Obviously I’m kinda biased being a kid myself but I think that getting mad and screaming at blank walls about entirely false premises of alt being mainstream is just childish. People who do that are no better than the kids they’re complaining about, like seriously some people are pushing 40 and still screaming about how “their space” is being ruined by kids and posers. If someone is bothered to turn up and stay at a music event, they probably don’t want to be a poser. Educate them, don’t screech about stuff being “too mainstream” seriously. Some people are as I said pushing 40, you aren’t 16 anymore, and if you want this culture to survive you have to give some help to younger people in a world which sucks hope out of us day by day.
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u/AnkuSnoo Jun 26 '26
Well said. I am pushing 40, but new to goth music. I absolutely agree on your point about nostalgia for the 90s and 00s. It’s certainly what I am most nostalgic about, and where most of my music taste is oriented to. I didn’t get pocket money as a kid, so everything I bought was using birthday money from my grandma or whatever, and yeah, I was still able to buy CDs and fun clothing that didn’t fall apart after a few wears. I had access to tangible artefacts of the culture of the time. Posters, CDs, magazines. Today, everything is more expensive, worse quality, and nobody owns anything, least of all teenagers.
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u/alienratfiend Jun 26 '26
I’m tired of this conversation tbh. Anyways, who here likes ethereal wave? I’ve been in a mood for it lately and would love some recommendations 🖤
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u/tanikio Jun 24 '26
From being emo back in 2009 to being goth now, I think some people are just doing it for fun, but the majority of people I meet or have met back then really had respect for the sub culture they were in. I think it's just easier to find the fakers now because we have so much access to it all.
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u/souls_wandering Jun 25 '26
Don't care, I'm just gonna take my own journey one step at a time without needing someone to influence my opinion on something.
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u/Salt-Composer-1472 Jun 25 '26
There's the alternative culture and then there's you. You kinda define what it is in regards to you. You definitely cannot erase posers but you can exist as the real deal.
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u/labellial Jun 25 '26
Speaking from my personal experience, I see many alternative people online but very few in real life. I also think it is mainstream but not mainstream enough for people to actually get out like that in public? And it‘s not mainstream enough for people to not stare. But this is just my personal experience from where I live
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u/AnkuSnoo Jun 26 '26
Yeah I feel like other than live shows or clubs, where would people even be going anymore? But I’m old and have no idea what “going out” even looks like anymore.
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u/Daealis Goth Jun 25 '26
To repeat many points of her video: Yes. I've watched the video around the time it came out and rewatched it now, and still I mirror her sentiments in almost all points.
The aesthetic gets neutered to skirt just inside the restrictive beauty norms, and then it passes as "alternative" to the mainstream. And it almost always is just the aesthetic, or that and the most palatable aspects of the subculture at large / bands. Not saying the bands are bad or sellouts, because much like any other time an alternative culture was breaking through to the mainstream, there were genuinely great bands getting plays. They're often on the more easily approachable side of course, no need to look any further than what punk bands have received mainstream recognition or radio plays, and it's the ones with the cleaner sounds and more melodic riffs instead of treating all instruments as percussion instruments.
So yeah, "Alt" aesthetic goes mainstream again. These days the surges to mainstream happen practically overnight, and you can fall out of it within a week just as easily. Not exactly new, not exactly shocking, not entirely unexpected. All it takes is a single hit tiktok to get a week of visibility.
And I may be even more lenient than her about the "gatekeeping". Much like the comment sections already seemed to be shouting at the OF-advertiser girls pretending to be goth (honestly don't know them beyond the very transparent push to their OF-subscriptions, but a quick glance of their instas doesn't suggest there's anything goth about any of them), I don't think the fetishizers being so visible is really feeding the misconceptions of the subculture. Their pretend is so over the top and plain if you're fooled by their shtick, maybe a subculture like goth that does promote some independent thought is not the place for you to begin with.
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u/Mikina Jun 25 '26
We're getting a lot of young people into our scene, and it's awesome. They look amazing, and so far I've been able to learn about new bands from most of them.
I'm also running a "DJ kindergarden" on one of my regular parties, where I just let someone DJ for an openning hour, providing them equipment and teaching them how to play the set, while also vetting the set beforehand so it doesn't go too much out of rails.
So far we've got a lot of very amazing sets, and I've never had to remove a single song from any one set.
I don't really consume mainsteream social networks, so any "mainstreamizations" goes under my notice. But if that's the explanation for the surge of young people we've seen, then it's all good. Even if only 1/20 people stick with the scene for longe, then that's good! I was also one of the lucky 20 around 10 years ago, who found it because I stumbled upon it in the mainstream, and now I'm helping with events, festivals and DJ.
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u/yaboiblackcheeseboi Jun 24 '26
My local goth night/Blue Monday is suddenly overwhelmed by people who are not in the scene at all. It used to be just a smaller group goth/alt people and now there’s a line going out the door to get in
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u/PhotoIntelligent7353 Jun 25 '26
“Alt” doesn’t look like anything, it’s the emergence of cultural and social forms outside, against, or beyond dominant norms.
Something like punk or goth can look or be “alt” but it’s in proportion to the mainstream.
Think dynamic/relationship not label.
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u/TombCheese Post-Punk, Goth Rock Jun 25 '26
I keep getting recommended this and I am tired of this kind of fearmongering for clicks, as if we haven't been through all this before. I am sure she probably acknowledges that, since these thumbnails tend to be purely to illicit an emotional reaction.
But here's the thing that I think is valid to say– a lot of younger people need help in figuring out how to enjoy their subculture without letting capitalism reap the benefits off their enjoyment. The hyperconsumerism drives me crazy to observe.
We who aren't in our 20s also have some evolving to do to catch up to opposing the forces at play nowadays. Tired of seeing regional goth events with AI promotion posters, for one. I think subcultures with a political component should be doing more to be avoiding massive evil tech corporations when possible. A lot of people are happy trading convenience for surveillance and I hate having to maintain a Facebook account just to participate.
Maybe this is slightly off-topic, but I hope it makes sense why I'm saying it. 😆
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u/AnkuSnoo Jun 26 '26
Not sure if you watched the video but she does touch on some of this: yes, a lot of this current generation is only finding community online, but when their formative years were informed by a pandemic and third spaces are getting shut down left right centre, there’s nowhere else for them to go. To add something to this myself: everything being a subscription now means that today’s teens have very little ability to actually own cultural artefacts, like physical media, for themselves. The only tangible expression of art and culture they have access to is clothing, which in itself is increasingly disposable, and retail of which exists primarily online now as malls and brick and mortar are disappearing.
So yes all the tech shit sucks and I agree that we have a responsibility to resist it as much as possible.
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u/TombCheese Post-Punk, Goth Rock Jun 26 '26
Ah yeah this is all stuff I am painfully aware of myself. I'm just barely not gen Z by a few years, so I have a lot of proximity to what they are going through. I didn't watch the video because I felt there was a high chance it would frustrate me, and it's too warm right now to invite extra worries lol. But I see this less a result of subcultures being mainstream and more about how younger people are not used to what they must do to participate. But there are definitely solutions that can help a ton.
Dusty Ganon recently released a video with a short guide on how to set up your own local goth night with very little bar of entry in getting started. It's very important for people to vent their frustrations on how the world is failing us in these ways into building bridges. A lot of people have trouble breaking the habit with social media though since it was there to turn to when nothing else was.
People need to break with Spotify too. Which is easier said than done, but at least Bandcamp exists as a ready alternative. It just takes more effort for curation. And the attached merch shops for most artists make it possible to get official physical copies of many things if you have the disposable income to do so. Buying the digital album and burning your own copy is good as well.
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u/AnkuSnoo Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
Well said!
I am almost 40 but just starting to learn about goth music and see if there’s anything here for me. I was “alt” or whatever as a teen in the early 2000s but most labels were ascribed to us by the normie kids who’d call us “gothics” and “hippies” even though we listened to pop punk and nu metal. I had strict parents and wasn’t allowed to any gigs or anything, so our “third space” was the park or a local youth club that ran on Saturday nights and had a pool table and a TV and a CD deck. We’d fight over the remote with the normies to change the channel from MTV to Kerrang! TV, or to play our rock CDs instead of the UK Garage they wanted. The internet was still new and I consumed a lot of gothic and alternative subculture that lived online but it was all people in America so it didn’t seem like something I could engage with in real life and felt like a fantasy. Even though I grew up in the UK near London I didn’t have any real understanding of the cultural hotbed that was on my doorstep (but again, I wasn’t allowed to go anywhere, least of all places like Brixton which my parents deemed too dangerous). So I ended up spending most of my time at home and online and never really found community that got me out of the house. Even as an adult I’ve always been a loner very content in my own company. But now it’s 25 years later and I want something different for myself.
I see with my stepdaughter’s (20) interest in CDs that physical media is coming back which makes me happy. I’ve been adding copious amounts of music to Apple Music playlists as part of my goth education and while it’s a great way for music to be accessible as an entry point, I do have some nostalgia for getting my hands on CDs of any kind of vaguely alternative music in my little town, with no idea what it would sound like, and listening to it intently and singularly. I was a teenager at the peak of Napster and CD burning and while the legality was different than the streaming services of today, it definitely had more soul and intention. If you’re prepared to wait an hour for a mislabeled mp3 to download, you must really be into the music. I like the idea of buying the digital album and burning a copy! Chaotic neutral FTW!
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u/TombCheese Post-Punk, Goth Rock Jun 26 '26
The nice thing about being an adult is at least we have more freedom and resources! and it's never too late to get more involved if it makes you happy. The gothy Discord server (link on the side of this sub) has regional channels so you can see what events are happening near you. Other than that, if you're still near London you can go to Slimelight, which is the longest running goth night period. And the Whitby music festival in the UK might be an option for you too.
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u/AnkuSnoo Jun 26 '26
Yes exactly! I actually live in Philadelphia now, moved here relatively recently, so am starting to explore what’s going on here.
I don’t particularly enjoy live events especially big ones - I don’t hate them, but they’re not something I specifically love as they flare up my anxieties and sensory sensitivities. So I’m hoping I can find some more low-key intimate spaces and events that feel fun and vibey for me.
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u/TombCheese Post-Punk, Goth Rock Jun 26 '26
Ah yeah thats absolutely understandable!! Sometimes my local scene has alt flea markets and stuff like that. In cooperation with one of the music venues that does a goth night.
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u/Smashrock797 Jun 25 '26 edited Jun 25 '26
What's more concerning is this is the only thing like 70%+ of people on reddit, especially the under 40 crowd, put effort into talking about outside saying "goth is/isn't about politics" and "music based subculture" 90 times a day, that's not a healthy sign, even for online discourse.
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u/AnkuSnoo Jun 26 '26
Agree. I’m approaching 40 and have been “alt leaning” (or whatever) my whole life but just recently started learning about goth music - literally within the past month or so - and I feel like I’ve been beaten over the head with people telling me to “learn about the subculture” but not actually being willing to teach or share it.
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u/Smashrock797 Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
That's what happens when a few people build echo chambers on certain platforms when there is a vacuum on said subjects. You then have 1000s of impressionable people who just want to fit in, who end up reinforcing everything that comes out their mouths even if it can be largely flawed at times, or get weeded out of the fake cool club if they don't conform 100%, so then then they end up becoming extensions of these people/minions which is the opposite of what goth is in the real world, which is much more decentralized and independent, minus some stuck up little cliques you occasionally run into at clubs or shows that still have emotional maturity of a volatile 15 year old.
Normalizing extremely shallow and repetitive topics is just as new as a every attempt to inject "music" into every other sentence, it's all part of this faux internet cult that sometimes isn't that much different than the target of what they are complaining about. These things resemble a monoculture than a subculture and revolve around worshiping or obeying personalities and with reenforced calculated and scripted responses, which isn't a real subculture, since it's more about feeding people's egos or attention or wanting validation. You never see this with other subcultures to this degree, it's strange phenomenon.
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u/AnkuSnoo Jun 26 '26
Thank you for saying this. This sub has been great for getting some initial music recommendations as I figure out if this something I want to delve more into, but I don’t want to get stuck feeling like I’m trying to fit in here. Someone left a judgy gatekeepy comment to me yesterday and it made me mad. I don’t feel like that would happen if I was going to a goth night for the first time and said something noobish. Not that I see myself going to a ton of live events as I don’t do well in those environments. So I’m still learning what the community is like for people who aren’t into nightlife per se.
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u/ChainSWray Jun 25 '26
Just because something is more accessible or has more visibility in the media doesn't mean it's mainstream, alternative cultures are called alternative for a reason. If you're part of any alt culture anywhere, you're still the local weirdo. Always has been.
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u/AnkuSnoo Jun 26 '26
Yeah she touches on that a bit - alt just means going against the dominant expectation etc. It’s all relative.
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u/CoffeeGoblynn Goth Rock Jun 25 '26
I think it's just a cycle of styles coming into and falling out of fashion. Last weekend I saw a person at our local Pride festival wearing the most aggressively shaped bell-bottoms I've ever laid eyes on. I mean they were basically normal, slightly stretchy pants down to the knee, then they flared out like an hourglass. The outfit was fire, to be honest. I certainly couldn't have rocked it. xD
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u/superstaticgirl Jun 25 '26
God we were saying similar in the 80s just because the biggest bands got on Top of The Pops, even the Neffs.... if it means one kid gets to hear the soaring majesty of a particularly doomladen chorus and converts it's worth it. Fashion is just fashion, it changes but the music lasts.
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u/CptnRaptor Jun 26 '26
Smdh these damn kids buying Vivian Westwood to look like that boy band The Sex Pistols, they're not real punks, real punks make their own clothes out of used rags stolen from a mechanic's workshop.
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u/Classic-Read9561 Jun 27 '26
In my humble opinion? Yeah.
Im a big thrifter. A few weeks ago some Abercrombie & Fitch/Gap type young girls (sorry, I'm a formerly brutally bullied AuDHD elder goth from the 80/90s) were in there gushing about how they "need more alt stuff", all the while side eyeing me in my corset.
Like listen, if you're looking to be a baby bat padawan I'm right here, girls. But otherwise foh with that nonsense. I'm all for flexibility in self expression, dress how it makes you feel good! But there is a mindset and a lifestyle behind it. A culture.
It feels like people wearing band tees of bands they only know one song, if that.
Some gates are worth keeping and some hills are worth defending.
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u/Throwaway7733517 Jun 24 '26
the aesthetic is going mainstream, but the actual culture is not, imo. every guy wants a goth girlfriend, but not one thats actually goth. People love looking alt but being alt is still not too common
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u/phantom_esque_ Jun 25 '26
This conversation sucks every time it's brought up because it always devolves into idiots in the comments/replies going "Goth/alternative subcultures have been dead since the 80's/90's! I'm just going to say it's dead because it's no longer at it's peak of popularity where it entered the mainstream and the music so insanely popular that it would obviously never reach this peak again (much like people say about metal and the 80s).
I'm going to say that it's all dead despite the currently thriving goth scenes around the world and plethora of new goth bands/musicians being created by the youth of today! Now, brands and corporations are capitalizing off of this DIY alternative subculture and people are pretending to like them for clout, which has clearly never happened before in history ever, so therefore it's just dead, okay!?"
idiotic doomer nihilists who throw all the work that musicians, dj's, and the youth/people currently within these subcultures and live music scenes today have done right back in their faces because somehow, the only way that a subculture is alive is during it's literal peak of popularity where it would've been capitalized off of the most by brands, have poseurs pretending to be a part of it, and being played on the radio, and anything other than that means that it's "dead".
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u/honeybee_tlejuice Goth Rock Jun 25 '26
Just because some people have a surface level understanding of it (black clothes etc) doesn’t mean alt went away tbh
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u/wheresmydrink123 Jun 25 '26
“Alt” as a blanket style is inherently a mainstream label of a bunch of subcultures. So yes, but it’s been happening for ages
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u/SeaPunK_ Jun 25 '26
am i bad for shopping alt clothes on shein 'cause theres no worthy clothing shop (thrifting is nonexistent) near me and i don't drive + nobody can drive me there? apparently yes.
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u/AnkuSnoo Jun 26 '26
Try online secondhand. EBay, depop, Vinted, etc.
Shein is terrible quality, unethical to the extreme, and has been found to be toxic (their kids clothes were found to contain many times more the safe limit of lead). I don’t even thrift it because I don’t want that on my body. You want to avoid it as much as possible. They are not the only place to buy clothes from even if you’re on a budget.
There’s a difference between affordable clothing and cheap clothing. Affordable clothing is inexpensive clothing that is sold at a price point that makes it accessible. Cheap clothing is disposable fashion that is produced at the lowest cost possible for the highest profit possible. It doesn’t last (so it’s not good value) and ultimately doesn’t serve anyone but the billionaire executives.
With that said, there are situations where these kinds of retailers are the only option for people who need to put clothes on their body. For example thrifting and ethical brands are often not size inclusive, whereas many of these uber fast fashion retailers carry inclusive size ranges.
There’s also a difference between buying something from an unethical company once in a blue moon because you can’t find it anywhere else, and doing shopping hauls every other week because you’re bored or someone on social media influenced you (not saying you do that, speaking in general terms). It’s not about where you buy it’s about how often.
Finding your identity and building a personal style takes time and should be a reflection of who you are. Yes, expressing our identity is important, but none of us are entitled to fashion, especially not at the cost of other humans’ dignity, safety or lives.
Ultimately, I’m not gonna judge someone for where they buy clothing, but I will always share the information on this topic that I’ve spent many years educating myself about.
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u/Lordcrimsonfox Jun 25 '26
Feel like this discussion has been had almost every decade for most subcultures, and with every mainstream-ification comes a counterculture movement.
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u/Just_Lucizx1 Post-Punk Jun 25 '26
Yeah due to missing information,social media polularization and watering down sobculture
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u/michi_mochii Jun 25 '26
Eh, happens every 10 years or so. Same happened in 2013 or '16 or so. I just restock on the clothes, add the new bands to my playlist and continue being myself.
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u/XDVRUK Jun 26 '26
Alt-Chav in the uk has been a thing for over a decade. Been mainstream for a long while.
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u/OccasionRelative8573 Jun 26 '26
Fake alternative has, but the true gothic culture and people have not
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u/Aen-Synergy Jun 26 '26
Corporations grab on to the Aesthetics to turn a quick buck and fuck all to the history. Same as it ever was. I feel we talk about this everyday lol
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u/final_cut Jun 26 '26
I don't like that term to be honest. Like when did people start calling themselves that? It just makes me think of how alternative music was all lumped together at the record shops, like Edie Brickell was next to some weird world music and then there was the cure and then some dead milkmen, some punk album, duran duran. That's what alternative music was when I was a teenager. Any of that. Now it's 'alt' and bright colored hair and black lipstick or something?
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u/Ashasakura37 Jun 27 '26
Cuz nothing is more goth or alt than our corporate overlords.
/jk
But they are literal vampires, and not in a good way.
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u/SMUTBAGS1312 Jun 27 '26
So long ago it's ridiculous. It's crazy because everything that I've been into since a little kid has become the most popular shit ever and now I am the most unpopular shit ever. I guess that's just how it goes. I literally have kids that haven't even been alive as long as I've been into the thing they're trying to school me on. This place sucks. Apparently I haven't gathered enough punk points to simply be at a show without getting some stupid comment from some kid who was a jock three weeks ago.
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u/Bxnny-Bxby Jun 28 '26
There's 8 billion people. I dont think anything can possibly exist that isn't mainstream in some capacity or won't eventually be mainstream. I couldn't possibly care less about this debate.
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u/Latter_Pipe_923 Jul 20 '26
It’s interesting to me.
You know…
A lot of the girls that were alt//emo// counter culture// that I know and//or went to highschool with were not popular, they were often shit on, and often come from bad homes.
Scene was a brutally, terrible subculture that shouldn’t have existed- it wasn’t a bunch of hot, e-girls, playing twitch shooters, selling you their OF, mistaking butt rock for punk or emo.
A lot of these scenes were and are platforms for people who feel rejected and felt that these “platforms” or spaces were for them to safely exist in- and now I think it’s been overrun by a bunch of culture vultures who would look down on the people who sat in the trenches for this to become mainstream.
But when we start saying who cares, I think we begin ignoring the “bigger” political statement these subcultures intended to make. Who cares is a form of apathy and counterculture has never been for the apathetic party.
It is truly such a fucking bummer when you meet a guy at the bar with a really well done sleeve of the universe or whatever tats those guys get— and you talk to them and they are absolutely fucking lame and an asshole.
And even on the punk scene, a lot of the most punk kids I met, weren’t doing the whole aesthetic thing. They weren’t fashion punks.
They wore whatever they could get because they were homeless or so poor, they couldn’t afford clothes.
So I guess at the end of the day it really is a testimony that mainstream culture// capitalism can occupy and change spaces where other people felt they had an identity due to a similarity in values and an opposition to mainstream culture.
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u/brainsdotio Aug 21 '26
What's been popularized is just a fetishization and corporate version of who we are. At least for me, it makes me feel better keeping in mind that you can't be alt by just wearing some clothes, so this "new" definition of alt is jst bs. Obviously subcultures are meant to evolve and grow with time and society, but as long as we remember the core principles of our communities, we'll be alright :)
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u/IHYSMRN Jun 25 '26
Gatekeeping being goth and saying this or that is or isn’t goth is lame af. Let people express themselves however they want , nobody owns the space
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u/Restoriust Jun 24 '26
No. This is click farming and/or someone who spends too much time online and has unknowingly created an echo chamber
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Jun 24 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Restoriust Jun 24 '26
That’s not what irony is but I congratulate you for being an example of it anyway. I watched 4 minutes. I’m not giving a creator out of anything worth talking about a full 36 minutes of my life.
It’s engagement slop on a good day. I can accurately guess the rest of the video.
Background of what alt is
Should we protect the subculture and gatekeep? More at 11
Something something social media
Everything is fine it’s just changing.
Example of a subculture that was alternative that most people haven’t heard of before
Conclusion
The question, content, and structure of the argument is evidence this person spends entirely too much time online and needs to go outside. This was either a serious question that someone asked or an unserious one presented in a serious way. I find either option insulting.
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Jun 25 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Restoriust Jun 25 '26
Yea I’m miserable because I disagree with a YouTube video.
Amazing breathtaking take lmao
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u/AnkuSnoo Jun 26 '26
The beginning of the video is not good and I nearly didn’t watch it all, but she does go on to make some compelling points and share some important background. Your guess was in fact not accurate.
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u/Restoriust Jun 26 '26
Yea I guessed she’d do background. Was the ultimate point that it hasn’t?
Cause that’s called a waste of time. Cause it’s a super standard format. Question thats framed to suggest a problem, enough backstory to keep people engaged, no problem identified.
If it’s your first interaction with that concern, it adds nothing. If it’s not, you need to go outside.
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u/IndridColdwave Jun 24 '26
The one thing I hate about goth or alt going mainstream is people who dress goth but still listen to mainstream pop or trap garbage and are just totally normie in every other respect
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u/AnkuSnoo Jun 26 '26
But if they’re not claiming to be goth what’s the problem? No one group owns black lipstick or fishnets or vinyl. There isn’t even one way to “dress goth” so what are you talking about?
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u/calviore94 Jun 25 '26
The larper/gooner goth girls shouldn’t even have goth in the name, anyone who is promoting their bodies through sexual desire with the goal to drain your soul (wallet) I call them Succubae. Like a succubus.
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u/AnkuSnoo Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26
Way to literally demonize sex workers. I get not liking the goth cosplay but the second part of your comment is dehumanizing.
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u/calviore94 Jun 26 '26
Oh yeah 😅 I guess that’s pretty offensive to sex workers. Well demons are cool at least. I don’t mean to offend anyone
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u/that1senpai2 Jun 24 '26
Alt went mainstream when dumb bands like Greenday, Blink 182, and Good Charolette got popular
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u/ObscuraRegina Jun 24 '26
I remember the Great Mall Goth versus Ubergoth War of yesteryear. The more things change, the more they stay the same