And what "just solution" do Sacco and Spiegelman have? Stopping Hamas' control over Gaza and the Palestinians? Turning to the neighboring Arab countries to ask them to aid the Palestinians? Turning to the Palestinian Authority or to the leaders of Palestinian political parties in the Knesset such as Balad or Palestinian Knesset members such as Ahmad Tibi and Ayman Odeh (all citizens of Israel have equal rights and Palestinian and Arab parties are part of the Knesset)? Anything other than bringing up the Nazis with phrases like "Final Solution" or making accusations like Netanyahu wants to kill everyone in Gaza?
This isn't really a GN, but it's been mentioned here a couple of times so I thought it worth sharing the final version. Spiegelman and Sacco are always worth reading.
What happens when two comics artists ‘meet on the page’ to explore the tragedies of the Israel-Gaza war? Art Spiegelman, best known for his Pulitzer prize-winning Holocaust memoir Maus, and Joe Sacco, author of bestselling graphic reportage Palestine, grapple with the ongoing crisis
read, if you haven't yet, also his 9/11 book, which even three years after 9/11 was so "subversive" to the American newspaper industry that he had to publish his pages in a German newspaper...
(the book is a collection of about a dozen double-page spread collages, kinda like a short film anthology, in comic form)
Yeesh! That rumor is based on my response to an audience member at a Q&A after the first screening of the Disaster is My Muse doc in November. When asked about what I was working on now, I explained that I was, at that moment, in the middle of a 3-page comix collaboration with Joe Sacco distilled from a few long phone conversations we had about Gaza. I dunno the exact definition of a graphic novel, but I think they're usually way longer than three pages. I naively didn't realize my comments would be reported on or inflated into describing an epic-length work that I wouldn't be able to finish before the Messiah comes. As it is, those three pages we made took months and will now be submitted by our agents looking for a suitable venue. All the best, a.s.
The strip was published here in the UK by the Guardian- a newspaper notorious for loathing Israel and publishing articles praising people like Leila Khaled.
I hear this argument frequently, yet the vast majority of media outlets are at least critical of Israel. They often quote statements released by Hamas that later turn out to be false and corrections are rare, and even when they do happen, the damage is already done.
This comic does nothing but justify the radicalization of Palestinian groups and essentially equates Israel with a terrorist organization. The bombings aren’t happening for fun but out of military necessity. Civilian casualties in Gaza are tragic, but sadly inevitable in one of the most densely populated areas on Earth. Moreover, as we know, Hamas cynically uses civilian buildings as shields, effectively taking their own population hostage twice over.
Ultimately, this comic is more about Sacco and Spiegelman patting themselves on the back for holding rather common anti-Israel views, something that is the norm in left-wing media. It doesn’t even attempt to offer solutions but instead reinforces a sense of powerlessness. I expected better from Spiegelman. Quite disappointing, to be honest.
I don't know why people are downvoting you - this is true, and very disappointing to see from such influential cartoonists. The least they could do is also talk about Hamas' actions, in addition to the stuff Israel does.
Not being funny, what are they criticizing about Oct 7? Hamas breaking through the border? Hamas killing dogs and chickens (Hamas destroyed farms and farm animals and shot dogs)? There's a lot of criticism of Israel in the three pages, but no mention of the hostages Hamas took, starved, and tortured- the hostages Hamas are releasing now. I hope all of the hostages are freed.
Mainly, it's because Oct 7 is just a normal Thursday for Palestinians.
We became so used with the horrors that happen in Gaza, that when something similar happens to other people, is shocking.
Hamas is a terrorist group. Hamas is an extremist group. But also is a resistance group against an occupation power that kills and humiliate Palestinians daily.
So, it's not that we don't criticize or don't acknowledge the horrors of Oct 7. We put it in its context.
What was Hamas "resisting" in Gaza? Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Egypt also blockades Gaza, for the same reasons Israel blockades Gaza, to keep weapons out of Gaza and to protect their citizens from terrorist attacks. Hamas has attacked Egypt with terrorist attacks.
So 1200 people get killed every day in Gaza and over 200 people are taken hostage every day in Gaza? I've been following news from the region for years now. Math was not my best subject, but I can see that 1200 people getting killed every day is 8400 people per week or 436800 people killed per year, 4368000 per decade or 25334400 people since 1967. Gaza's population has increased from 117,433 in 1967 to 2.1 million, currently. And the only hostages in Gaza are the 73 still remaining after Oct 7.
Don't pretend that the situation in Gaza isn't terrible for the Palestinians, and that Israel is imposing an Apartheid state on the population.
And about the deaths, that's clearly hyperbole, a figure of speech. But in Israel's "retaliation", 46,600 people were killed (according to the "official" count, the numbers could be higher), 27 times more victims than in October 7, or almost 100 Palestinians murdered by IDF per day of war...
Hamas has many reasons to resist. Palestinians have many reasons to resist.
In addition, Egypt is the second largest non-NATO military ally of the US, and has received 1.3 billion USD in military aid.
Also, Times of Israel isn't the most reliable source...
The death figures come from the Gaza Ministry of Health which is run by Hamas and have been called unreliable by many people. Experts point out the Ministry doesn't distinguish between civilians killed, militants, or Hamas members killed in battle. For some people the 46,000 Palestinians killed figure isn't high enough. A letter in the Lancet magazine claimed the number was closer to 186,000. Then a columnist in the Guardian said that wasn't high enough and doubled it. We'll probably not have an accurate figure until the ceasefire is permanent and the numbers can be verified by independent groups.
This must have been created recently as it mentions the ceasefire... no mention of the hostages? With the recent releases of the hostages in Gaza, surrounded by Hamas members with guns?
Maybe you should. There's a ton of criticism for Israel- from an American who's never lived in Israel and has never experienced being in a war. (I'm aware Spiegelman lived through 9-11 and wrote a book about it but that isn't the same as your country being attacked by terrorist groups for decades)
Yes there is. And also criticism of Hamas. He calls the initial attack on Oct 7 horrific and then later on states that he thinks Hamas is exactly as bloodthirsty as Israel, just less capable. So you see, he criticizes Hamas, too.
"thinks Hamas is exactly as bloodthirsty as Israel, just less capable" That's criticism of Hamas?
Imagine if after 9-11 someone said Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden were just as bloodthirsty as the US, just less capable. That's not exactly criticizing Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden for attacking the US on 9-11 and killing 2,996 innocent people. It's suggesting a false equivalence between the US and a militant terrorist organization who attacked the US and killed thousands of civilians and foreign nationals.
There's no criticism here of Hamas for taking over 200 people hostage including elderly women and children, which is odd seeing as the strip was created after the ceasefire and Hamas releasing hostages- hostages showing clear evidence of them being tortured and starved. No criticism of Hamas for killing hostages wither.
"thinks Hamas is exactly as bloodthirsty as Israel, just less capable" That's criticism of Hamas?
Yes, it is. Spiegelman here takes the standpoint that Israel, being a free, liberal democracy backed up by the most powerful nation on Earth should be held to higher standards than a terrorist organisation (a standpoint that, imo, any reasonable person should have). That's his main viewpoint expressed in this comic, his disappointment that Israel can't act more how a responsible, powerful nation should act- even when horribly injured.
However, he then also shoots back at the mere suggestion that this somehow makes Hamas morally righteous by pointing out that they are every bit as morally bankrupt as Israel, merely less well-armed and funded. That's critcizing Hamas and their supporters.
People who critizised the actions of the US in Afghanistan post-9/11 (of which there were *loads*) did exactly what Spiegelman does here. "Yeah, fuck Al-Qaida but what the fuck is the US doing over there? They're just causing more and more suffering." And they obviously held the US to a higher standard than they did Al-Qaida, just as they hold Israel to a higher standard than Hamas.
There's no criticism here of Hamas for taking over 200 people hostage including elderly women and children, which is odd seeing as the strip was created after the ceasefire and Hamas releasing hostages- hostages showing clear evidence of them being tortured and starved. No criticism of Hamas for killing hostages wither.
There's also no criticism against any specific actions by Israel: No mention of the countless journalists and international aid workers killed by Israel or their landgrabs or torture of Palestinian prisoners. What's your point? It's a pretty general comic with a general message, not an in-depth review of the events of the war in Gaza.
It's interesting to read what two of the most important voices in comics on the subject have to say - and I think it's fair that they don't have definitive answers about anything, they have doubts and the situation seems to be very difficult. In forums and social networks we only see definitive and brutal answers, which are unlikely to be an answer that will give any future to those who are suffering with all this madness.
Spiegelman has no idea of what he’s talking about. Where does he come off calling Israel “a failed experiment?” Was the US a failed experiment because it fought Japan after Pearl Harbor?
Thank you for speaking up. Very disappointed with him. He is not right to in any way equate the Holocaust with the war in Gaza. Anyone who does is a tool. But from him it’s extremely disappointing!! Social media is very left leaning and I can see that a lot of folk here have been fed misinformation that there is genocide in Gaza. It’s a terrible urban war where the Muslims are using children as human shields. And Israel is trying it hardest to reduce casualties. If they wanted to kill all the Gazans they would have all been long dead. The population of Gaza has grown from about 350,000 people in 1948 to around 2 million people in 2024. That’s because of the Jewish/Israeli healthcare they have been receiving. Meanwhile, in that amount of time the European Jewish population only doubled just bringing it back to the amount of Ashkenazi Jews that were living before World War II. That is the opposite of genocide!
It's pretty normal though. The panels read in a normal fashion and just in case the panels 7-8 throws you, he gives you word balloon breadcrumbs to follow.
The problem is that the right-hand panels look like a unit separate from the left: they're united by colour scheme, panel width, and setting, making it look like the page has two vertical columns. The intended reading order is conventional but the layout and colours give a different impression, potentially confusing the reader.
The only reason I couldn't finish Maus was because it was making me severely depressed at a time when I was already depressed. I'm glad to see Art is still on the correct side of history.
It so happens I'm a mouse person. I met Art Spiegelman years ago when I was teaching in Germany. I saw him at a press conference when he was drawing a picture of himself as a mouse surrounded by cats. I wanted to tell him, "Mr Spiegelman, I'm a mouse person too."
In this strip sadly he sounds like many Left commentators I've seen online condemning Israel for trying to free the hostages and fighting a terrorist organisation dedicated to wiping Israel out without saying a single word to criticise Hamas, not even for Hamas killing Palestinians, foreign nationals, elderly people and children.
How would you react if you were President of the US, a terrorist group attacked the country, killed 1200 people and took over 200 hostage? When the US attacked Japan after Pearl Harbor, were the US tactics barbaric for a nation so rich? The US dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and killed 2-3 million Japanese, many of them women and children.
I note you have nothing to say about the hostages - the recent releasing of the hostages showed they were starved and tortured. One man couldn't walk by himself.
I think it leads to the next panel, where he says that all the people being crushed under Israel' boot have a legitimate reason to hate Israel. He doesnt question Hamas' intentions. He says it goes way beyond Hamas.
Perhaps Spiegelman should read the Hamas Charter which clearly states their aim is to kill Israelis and kill all Jews. https://avalon.law.yale.edu/21st_century/hamas.asp And he should read some history books.
That line about traumatized groups traumatizing more groups really rings true throughout history. The nazis sprung up because of the unfair reparations Germany was forced to pay after WWI. The Israelis are now murdering an entire ethnicity carte Blanche. It’s all a cycle of violence, and it will truly never end
Blaming the Holocaust on reparations is a gross oversimplification that trivializes Nazi ideology and absolves them of responsibility. Economic hardship alone doesn’t lead to genocide, Nazi antisemitism was deeply rooted in conspiracy theories and widespread ideologies in German speaking countries which resented Jews, and wasn’t just a result of postwar grievances. Equating Israel’s actions with the Nazis is not only historically inaccurate but also dangerously inflammatory. If we truly want to break „cycles of violence“, we need to engage with history responsibly, not reduce it to misleading narratives.
If we follow that reasoning the Russians oppressed half of Europe and killed millions of people because they were traumatized when they were victims of the Nazis. The Ukrainians were also victims of the Nazis. Imagine someone blaming Ukraine for carrying out human rights abuses because they were traumatized by the Nazis and were traumatized by the Russians for centuries before that.
"The Israelis are now murdering an entire ethnicity carte Blanche" is that what you call Israel trying to protect its citizens after rocket attacks which Hamas has been carrying out for years, and fighting to free the hostages Hamas took on Oct 7, after killing 1200 people including foreign nationals? I just wrote in another comment that I was puzzled there was no outcry about Hamas taking 4 Thai nationals hostage and killing one by cutting his head off with a hoe, and no outcry about Hamas taking a Tanzanian national hostage, then killing him live on camera in Gaza. Moreover, Sacco and Spiegelman don't mention that Hamas has stated they would do the atrocities of October 7 three or four times over. The Hamas Charter states their aim is to kill Jews. Not just Jewish Israelis- all Jews.
I like how "you have no brain" is immediately followed up by "it is not a war of defence".
My brother in reddit hamas attacked - HARD, Israel defends. What do you mean? Lmao
Hamas continued to attack Israel with rockets after Oct 7. Please explain to me how Israel trying to rescue the 200 plus hostages Hamas took on Oct 7 and trying to stop the attacks on Israeli civilians is not a war of defense.
"Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." From the Hamas Charter: https://avalon.law.yale.edu/21st_century/hamas.asp
Hmmmm.....I'm sorry but acting as if every action that's been undertaken by Israel is purely for the protection of its citizens is naive at best and apologia for genocide at worst.
That is some response to quotes from the Hamas Charter: a Guardian article from four months ago about recovering bodies of hostages who were taken by Hamas. I notice you have nothing to say about Hamas taking the hostages and you're stating that Israel trying to rescue hostages is "apologia for genocide". That is something else.
Sacco looking doubtful when Spiegelman says Hamas would be just as murderous as Israel if they had the same means is very telling. The guy's assessment of I/P is just too clouded by his own bias to trust his work
I'm shocked by Spiegelman trying to say that Israel is just as murderous as Hamas, or Hamas would be just as murderous as Israel if they had the same means. Sounds like Spiegelman is just as biased against Israel as Sacco is.
That jumped out at me too. Interesting that it made it into the final version.
I have nothing but respect for Spiegelman. My own thinking has evolved along the line of his assessment. As he says in this comic “ethnic cleansing” now sadly seems the right term, although that is not where I (or he, if I am reading the comic accurately) started.
Re-reading, it looks like he says he ”Kinda ‘genocide-ish’. I called [past tense] it ‘ethnic cleansing‘ but when I saw the images of starving babies in Gaza i had to upgrade my language.”
So Spiegelman was using the term “ethnic cleansing” to describe the situation but increased the severity of his language to “genocid-ish”. Glad I re-read.
Odd that he has nothing to say about Hamas committing ethnic cleaning by killing 1200 people on October 7 and stating that they would do the atrocities of Oct 7 again and again. And nothing to say about the Hamas Charter which states their aim is to kill Israelis and take the land of Israel.
What Trump is advocating for is undoubtedly a textbook example of ethnic cleansing, and I would not put it past the Likud Party to allow it if they felt the US would take the blame from the international community over them. Before that announcement I felt that while there was a risk for ethnic cleansing, it would only be realized if Gazans were not allowed to return to their pre-war location
Just want to say I’ve seen many posts on social media over the years calling for Israelis to be expelled from the West Bank and Israel - and people criticising them as calls for ethnic cleansing.
I'm not a fan of "if the tables were turned" arguments. They deny reality. Someone said to me recently "if capitalism had unlimited means, if resources weren't finite, then it would be a stable system". That kind of thinking is idealist, unscientific.
I'm israeli so feel free to say my bias is speaking but the IDF does a lot to abide by moral standards - from roof knocking, to evacuation times and pauses, etc. Sure, there are bad actors, and there are IDF policies to punish them. In hamas' case they are radical Islamist fundementalists. "As genocidal as Israel" is delusional, hamas' charter and actions are deliberate in their intent to eradicate all Jews everywhere - and we've certainly seen them do it! In contrast, the IDF fights for Israeli safety and to bring the hostages back, not eradicate gazans.
Yes, I pointed out this in another comment I wrote here. I'm frustrated by the double standard many people have where they know Hamas is a terrorist organisation and say little to oppose Hamas killing innocent people and taking over 200 people hostage, but they expect Israel to be morally perfect. Israel is only doing what any other country would do if they are attacked, if their civilians are killed and if their civilians are taken hostage.
"As genocidal as Israel" and making a false equivalence between Israel, a democratic country, and Hamas, a terrorist organisation, is also appalling in the light that there's no mention in the strip of Hamas stating that they would do the atrocities of October 7 again and again and no mention of the Hamas charter stating their aim is to take the land of Israel, kill Israelis and kill all Jews everywhere.
He had a misconception that economic stability would cause relative peace, hamas played into that. It was a strategic mistake, none of this is intentional, and netanyahu and hamas certainly are to blaim - but not the IDF as a whole.
I'm aware that the IDF employs some of these tactics to reduce civilian casualties, but it seems like they, perhaps intentionally, obfuscate the extent to which these tactics are employed. I'm not impressed by their results and I think this war could have ended months ago. However, it does seem like Hamas is much more comfortable with intentionally targeting civilians. When they had the opportunity and there was still a power differential between them and the IDF, they were still able to slaughter hundreds of Israeli civilians in a matter of hours before their forces were stopped.
It's a impossible situation when Hamas has held over 200 people hostage and those hostages were held in the homes of Palestinians: one journalist held three hostages in his home. Hamas has used schools, hospitals, and civilian homes to store weapons, while firing weapons from schools and hospitals. Hamas has fired weapons from safe humanitarian zones and exploited them to hold meetings for senior Hamas officials. I was very glad when Israel rescued 4 hostages. I can see how difficult it's been when the hostages and Hamas militants have been embedded among the civilian population. It's also been difficult with Hamas refusing to free the hostages and Hamas being willing to allow Palestinian civilians and children to be killed accidentally during fighting.
It is really an interesting strip that I and my buddies took through in our comic reading group (a kind of book club for comics). Precisely because it is interesting because I have a lot of friends who have come from the name east or people there they still live there, David and Lisa (his cousin) have their family there in Israel, and in the case of Lisa have their parents They sent to us, precisely because it has been too powder barrel since the attack and the kidnapping, plus the government's military operation made life too scary. And Yasin is worried about the new situations that turns the whole middle east upside down.
I think many just can't really imagine that precisely because well, It is still a fresh wound and unfortunately it was always. And these quarrels have already existed when the British have already been there, which, like every colonialism, shit whether a Place has stability for the people who have to live and live there.
I mean when was the last war across Europe or how long was the civil war of the United States? We are simply no longer used to it and take this peace for granted, even if in reality it was a long work and needed long time with a lot of failure and dead.
Obviously. To fully understand how awful the situation is it’s important to have a firm grasp on what happened when the Ottoman Empire fell, and how the land was divided up by the west and how the Ottoman Turks successful genocide of the Armenian people (and any Christian on Turkish soil). These killings were the blue print for Hitler’s final solution. The cycle of genocide and ethnic cleansing go hand in hand with nation building and colonisation. Your grasp on the situation clearly lacks deep thought and understanding. If you think the killing of children and innocent civilians is okay, you side with the oppressor and you are part of the problem. You’re a troll and you’re on the wrong side of history.
Well well to quote Lisa we should have better helped because Palestine builds up ther own state because it would then have organs to combat radicality, but because they have none you get something like Hamas because they at least give a kind of "order", Even if they unfortunately fundamentalism.
Hamas hasn't allowed elections in Gaza since they were elected in 2005. In the West Bank the Palestinian Authority hasn't held presidential or parliamentary elections for 20 years. Mahmoud Abbas is in his 20th year of his 4 year term as President.
This is my issue with the strip. There's condemnation of Israel but no mention of the innocent civilians Hamas killed- not even the Palestinians and Palestinian children Hamas has killed (there is a mention of Oct 7 in the first panel but it's very brief). I've seen many critics of Israel online who apparently think the killing of children and innocent civilians is okay if they can't blame Israel for them or if the children and innocent civilians are Israeli. Hezbollah attacked Israel for months after Oct 7, including killing 12 Druze children while they were playing football. But because the Druze children were Israeli citizens apparently that was fine: I saw little criticism of Hezbollah for it. 4 Thai hostages were released by Hamas on January 30 and I was puzzled that there was little criticism of Hamas for taking foreign nationals hostage and killing them: Hamas killed one Thai worker by cutting off his head with a hoe while he was alive and killed a Tanzanian citizen on camera after taking him captive and taking him to Gaza.
The idea of oppressors and the oppressed has led to many people thinking that Israel is the oppressor, so Israel is bad, while the Palestinians are the oppressed, so they are good. Whatever the Palestinians do is good, even if they invade Israel and kill civilians and take over 200 people hostage including elderly women and babies. Whatever Israel does is bad- and this strip illustrates an example of that kind of thinking, that Israel fighting to free the hostages and protect their citizens is bad. Meanwhile few people speak out against Hamas and Hezbollah killing Palestinians, Palestinian children and Druze and Druze children. This kind of thinking lacks nuance and lacks historical knowledge.
During the Ottoman period the Jewish communities of Hebron and Safed were attacked in 1517, 1660, 1834 and 1838. The Jewish communities of Jerusalem and Tiberias were also attacked numerous times throughout the centuries. Anti Semitism in the Ottoman Empire also led to Jews being massacred in Damascus after a blood libel in 1840. There was a massacre of Jews in Baghdad in 1828. There was a massacre of Jews in Barfurush in 1867. I suggest you read more about history. Also, the Hamas Charter makes it clear their aim is to take the land which is currently Israel and kill the Israelis: nation building, colonization and ethnic cleaning. They have also stated they want to kill all Jews, not just Israeli Jews.
I mean, there’s quite a few things in there that are pretty controversial. There are people who say Israel’s reaction to October 7th was entirely justified, for example, and this comic claims otherwise, and there are also people who claim Israel shouldn’t exist and get real mad at you when you take the same stance as these guys, that it does exist and it’s too late to put that genie back in the bottle.
I agree that nothing they’re saying here should be controversial, but they touch on a few topics that I’ve seen some folks get very upset about.
EDIT: I can’t reply to /u/Angustcat directly because the post has been locked but I still have to answer this…
What would the US do if it were attacked by a terrorist group which killed innocent people and took over 200 hostage? Probably the same thing: fight to free the hostages and protect their civilians from further attacks.
And I don't think there's anything they're saying here that's wrong, as such. I think perhaps the bit at the end about just being two groups of traumatised victims is probably a little bit charitable to the Israeli government as opposed to the Jewish culture in general. I am not convinced Benjamin Netanyahu is any sort of traumatised victim
How were the 1200 people who were killed on Oct 7 "aggressors" particularly the Thai and Tanzanian citizens and other foreign nationals who were killed by Hamas? Or the children and babies Hamas took hostage? Many of the Kibbutz residents Hamas killed were peace activists. Several belonged to an organization that drove Palestinians from Gaza into Israel so they could get medical treatment at Israeli hospitals.
Hamas has been attacking Israel with rocket attacks and terrorist attacks for decades. Egypt also blockades Gaza because Hamas has attacked Egypt with terrorist attacks as well.
I don't think it's bad to want to kick out colonizers. Imagine if they made robbing legal and defending your property was declared terrorism. Hamas is good
If America agrees with them they're "guerrillas fighting for their freedom and self determination", if not they're " bloodthirsty terrorists who want to annihilate western civilization"
Drawing a equivalence between Israel and a terrorist group that's stated clearly in their charter that they want to kill Israelis, kill all Jews and take the land of Israel is offensive and wrong. Israel gives equal rights to all its citizens including Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Druze and other non Jewish groups. The Arab Raam Party is a major party in the Knesset and Israel has democratically elected more Muslims than any other country including the US.
Trust me plenty of Israelis do not like Bibi and want him and the current government gone. But the common theme for Gaza is that Hamas start firing rockets and the people start cheering, celebrating and the moment Israel responds, its lets play the victims... get our kids front on center... so everyone feels sorry for us.
C'mon now. Plenty of Americans don't like Trump, but if he keeps getting elected you've maybe got to start asking if maybe there are some deeper issues at play. "Plenty of" isn't enough if nothing ever changes. Bibi got voted out a couple of years ago. What happened next?
I do not think Hamas is good. I will acknowledge that the line between terrorist and freedom fighter is ultimately one of perspective, and the targeting of civilians is bad and wrong
But they're talking about emptying Palestine and building Trump hotels, man. That's an actual ongoing conversation. Whatever Hamas might do in some alternate universe where things are completely different to actual reality, we have to confront what Israel is actually doing, in reality.
It is ethnic cleansing. It is genocide. They want to bulldoze it flat and build fucking Sharm El Sheik on the west bank.
Hamas are not committing genocide. And I do not think that if Hamas do bad things, genocide is a reasonable and proportional response
I am also aware that centuries of antisemitism are a thing. I do not want to see a rise in antisemitism in the world. I do not want to hold all Jews accountable for the actions of Likud
But what is happening now is wrong. And it needs to stop if any reasonable conversation can occur. Because the only way anything is going now is further mass murder
And just to forestall any rebuttals about moving the Palestinians to Jordan or Egypt or some island somewhere, please look at every single forced relocation in history and tell me if there's a single one that history looks favourably on.
Oh I am definitely in the I don't like Trump camp and I think his idea of emptying Gaza is the stupidest thing ever... I was going to be very rude... but I'm not wanting to get into political debates or arguments. I will however dispute the claim re: Hamas committing Genocide, they may not have committed genocide, but their attack October 7th was a clear sign that they would. Also their charter is basically no more Israel and they don't mean by 'please move away' they mean by any means necessary. Israel has also not committed genocide or starving the population of Gaza as people claim, aid trucks were going into Gaza not just after the ceasefire, but before.
Hamas meanwhile are now parading the hostages around like they were guests as they release them with goodie bags and doing it with people surrounding these hostages like its a mob.
Sorry, I don't accept "Hamas would commit genocide if they could"
They are not. And they are not in any position to. They can kill people, and they have. They are not committing genocide
Even if they want to, if your argument is "well they totally would if they could", I would like to ask you what solution you are proposing to prevent them from doing that
Because at the moment, it seems to be "kill them all first"
And on a personal note, it's extremely disingenuous of you to enter a conversation about Israel and Palestine, advance your own opinion, the claim you don't want to get into politics. What are you even doing here, then?
"The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." (Article 6)
On the destruction of Israel:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
Sure sounds like they would and even after Israel responded to their October 7th attack, they still said they would continue to repeat October 7th. They're not the good guys and never will be and they are certainly never the victims, only the victims of their own making...
Hamas has clearly stated in their charter their aim is to take the land of Israel, kill Israelis and kill Jews. Hamas killed several foreign nationals on Oct 7 and afterwards, including one Thai worker who they killed by cutting off his head with a hoe, and a Tanzanian man they took hostage and killed in Gaza on camera. How is that freedom fighting? What did the Thai and Tanzanian nationals do to the Palestinians?
(https://avalon.law.yale.edu/21st_century/hamas.asp)
A number of people have pointed out that many critics of Israel want to move all Israelis to another country, and few people spoke out to oppose that suggestion as opposed to the outcry after Trump said he wants Palestinians to be able to live somewhere else in peace and safety.
I agree that if Trump's intention is to expel all Palestinians and not allow them to return to Gaza that's ethnic cleansing. And that's not Israel's intention to expel them and not allow them to return.
What would the US do if it were attacked by a terrorist group which killed innocent people and took over 200 hostage? Probably the same thing: fight to free the hostages and protect their civilians from further attacks.
Not "saying anything too controversial"? "spineless"? I was really upset when I read the strip because Spiegelman and Sacco both criticize Israel without criticizing Hamas- something I've seen sadly many many times since October 7 2023- they bring up the eye for an eye reference and they accuse Netanyahu of wanting to kill everyone in Gaza.
Private Eye magazine did exactly the same on October 19 2023, only 12 days after Oct 7: https://www.thenational.scot/news/23866915.private-eye-sparks-debate-israel-hamas-war-cover/ They were heavily criticized for their cover showing "Private Eye for an Eye" and criticizing Israel for wanting to kill everyone in Gaza.
But you're right, it's not very insightful. It's the same accusations I see online from people who have a bias against Israel.
It's a shame that, just like everybody else, they breeze straight past the central problem ("the Bible says an eye for an eye") without realising it's the central problem to every conflict on earth.
There's a reason christianity was a revolutionary movement in whatever its original form was, before it got co-opted and corrupted by the ruling powers who recognised it could be used as yet another tool of subjugation. Turning the other cheek is an act of defiance which severs the control of the power-hungry and the warmongering.
Its contrary to every human instinct that you can trace all the way back to whenever the first monkey hit another one over the head with a stick, but that instinct is the one that keeps causing our civilisations to destroy each other.
Thanks for pointing out that "eye for an Eye" is a reference to Christianity and the Sermon on the Mount. Turning the other cheek was what Jesus said. It was revolutionary. But why do so many people expect Israel to follow it? Israel is only doing what any other country would do if it were attacked, its citizens killed and taken hostage. The eye for an eye image came up in Private Eye magazine when it published a cover claiming Israel supposedly wanted to kill everyone in Gaza (https://www.thenational.scot/news/23866915.private-eye-sparks-debate-israel-hamas-war-cover/) They were heavily criticised for it.
The point isn't about whether you think it's an apartheid state or not, it's that r/Jewish doesn't represent the full spectrum of Jewish opinion when they ban people for holding that belief.
I'm Jewish. I object to Spiegelman and Sacco using phrases like "final solution" and stating Netanyahu's objective is to kill everyone in Gaza, especially as neither one of them say much to criticise Hamas. One brief mention of Oct 7 in the first panel, no mention of Hamas taking over 200 people hostage including elderly women and children. By the way, I lived and worked in Germany, and people there don't like it if you use the phrase "final solution".
""If you bomb people into rubble and kill them, what do you expect? Hamas not bad!"
"If you fire rockets at people and kill them, rape and kill women and livestream the rapings and killings, take over 200 people hostage including babies, and starve and torture and kill hostages, what do you expect? Israel BAD!"
What really offends me about this strip is that Hamas kills Palestinians and Palestinian children, but you don't see Spiegelman or Sacco criticizing them. Apparently ethnic cleansing is fine when Hamas does it. Or when Syria does it. Syria killing thousands of Palestinians doesn't get a peep out of Sacco or Spiegelman.
The thing is that Hamas is a terrorist organization. I can’t speak for Sacco because I’m not as familiar with his work, but for Spiegelman, at least, I think it’s just assumed that Israel is meant to be better than a terrorist organization. And honestly, I think it’s fair to expect countries to conduct themselves with more respect for international law and rules of engagement than terrorists.
It’s the double standard: Hamas can rape and kill women, take babies hostage, starve and torture hostages and get no criticism from Sacco, Spiegelman and people who say, “Well, who are we to judge…. “ Israel fighting to free hostages however is condemned because they’re supposed to be “better”-even though they‘re doing what any country would do if attacked by a terrorist group and if their citizens are killed or taken hostage.
It’s maddening. I saw a video where American students were told about people being killed by terrorists at a music festival. They hadn’t heard about it and they said, “That’s terrible.“ But after they were told the people were Israelis at the Nova festival killed by Hamas on Oct 7 they completely changed their attitude and made it sound like the Israelis deserved it. It’s part of the idea many people have of the oppressors vs the oppressed. They think Palestinians are oppressed and Israelis are the oppressors, so Palestinians good, Israel bad. Hamas are Palestinians so everything they do is good. Everything Israel does is bad. Hamas killing Israelis is good. Israel fighting to get the hostages back is bad. For Spiegelman Israel fighting for its life is bad. Bad for the Jews even. Notice neither Sacco or Spiegelman have anything to say about Hezbollah attacking northern Israel from Oct 7 and the attacks lasting for months. Hezbollah killed 12 Druze children who were playing football but nothing about that or the Hamas Charter declaring Hamas’ aim of killing all Jews. Not just Israelis- all Jews.
"one catastrophic war" Has anyone else noticed that Spiegelman and Sacco have nothing to say about October 7 and the hostages? Nothing about Hamas raping and killing women and livestreaming the rapings and killings, or Hamas taking over 200 people hostage including babies? Nothing about Hamas releasing hostages who have been starved and tortured? If Hamas hadn't invaded Israel on Oct 7 Mr Spiegelman and killed people and taken hostages, there would have been no war.
This is like condemning the US for Hiroshima and Nagasaki and calling the US utterly murderous for attacking Japan, without ever mentioning Pearl Harbor and making it sound like the US attacked Japan for no reason at all, just because they're murderous. And without ever mentioning that Japan oppressed and killed millions before and during WWII.
I do support Israel in any way but some actions were totally questionable and not a good choice to handle the conflict. First i saw this i thought "oh no another artist fulfilled his antisemetic delusion" but then i read it and were surprised that it's not. My conclusion is: Free Gaza from Hamas! Free Israel from Bibi!
I've actually met Art Spiegelman - several times, twice in Germany and once in San Diego at the San Diego comic convention.
I can understand Sacco's point of view as I've read his War on Gaza. Spiegelman is mouthing off in this strip about issues he knows nothing about it. I'm embarrassed for him.
"Israel may be a failed experiment" from a person who has never lived in Israel and has never experienced war. I know Art Spiegelman lived through 9-11 but he was not attacked and his loved ones weren't killed or taken hostage.
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u/Chocow8s Feb 14 '25 edited Feb 14 '25
Glad I can read all 3 pages in their entirety, thanks for sharing it here.