r/interesting • u/tyrion2024 • 10h ago

MISC. A Virginia man inadvertently left his phone recording while he was under anesthesia for a colonoscopy, which captured audio of the doctors: mocking him, instructing a medical assistant to lie to him, and discussing giving him a false diagnosis of hemorrhoids. In 2015, a jury awarded him $500,000.

Post image
13.3k Upvotes

95% Upvoted

1.5k comments sorted by

View all comments

2.7k

u/ryonnsan 10h ago

and because of this, no phone is allowed in the room during surgery. nice

1.5k

u/Bhavacakra_12 10h ago

Cop behavior from the medical professionals honestly. Why be better people when you can handicap people's ability to catch misconduct?

371

u/Ready-Rise3761 6h ago

sadly this is a common phenomenon (potentially linked to the fact that surgeons have a high psychopathy rate). There was a study about surgeons making degrading and objectifying remarks about naked and unconscious female patients. It showed that the presence of female nurses didn’t reduce the frequency of such remarks, only the presence of female doctors did.

21

u/algol_lyrae 2h ago

I'm resistant to anesthetics, and I was semi-conscious when I heard my surgeon come in and torment me over the pain I was in. I'd had my skull and face sawed open for my surgery. There was no opportunity to tell anyone, and the assumption was that I was asleep or delirious anyway.

131

u/Particular-Cat-1397 5h ago

That’s because everyone knows the mean girls in high school become nurses

135

u/Gnomus_the_Gnome 5h ago

Probably more so the power dynamics that prevent nurses from speaking up against the doctor

17

u/BigMadBigfoot 3h ago

My good friend is a nurse and she can no longer sit at the nurses station. This is because one time a doctor came over and wanted to sit down there and all the seats were taken by nurses.

10

u/ActiveExisting3016 4h ago

Yeah lol the previous person is just a nurse-hater

2

u/EcstaticManagement56 3h ago

Right, I always tip my hat to nurse, because they are the ones that will save your life!!

1

u/[deleted] 4h ago edited 4h ago

[deleted]

3

u/ActiveExisting3016 4h ago edited 1h ago

Regardless of how many studies from 2006 you throw at me, the fact that you’re generalizing “all nurses are mean girls” means your statement goes right into the garbage

I’m a nurse myself (albeit, a male) and obviously people are fucking assholes everywhere, including nursing, but I’m SO TIRED of seeing this profession dragged through the mud.

And no, I’m not saying that because I wasn’t bullied that it doesn’t happen. It does occur but it’s not this rampant wildfire that you’re making it out to be

Edit: and the comment was deleted! At least have the gall to stand by what you said. I doubt any learning took place

-3

u/Comfortable_Yak_1687 2h ago

You are totally right. My sister is a nurse and I have chronic health conditions, but she is great about it all! It is the system that restricts nurses abilities to do whatever, not the nurses fault. People think nurses are mean but that may come from the doctor! (Doctors are more well-known for their rudeness than nurses are). Nurses are the best!!! They get you places!

1

u/Weak_Reports 2h ago

No, I think it because literally every mean girl I grew up with became a nurse and every asshole guy became a cop or joined the military

→ More replies (0)

27

u/SabrinaEdwina 4h ago

Can vouch. My extremely racist bully sibling is now a nurse post memes about how many lives they save.

3

u/Barraco_Barmer 4h ago

The barrier for entry to nursing is surprisingly low

1

u/deber38 4h ago

My bully became a nurse too. She loves the power

2

u/Commercial_Sun_6300 1h ago

Male surgeons make degrading remarks and you blame the female nurses for it?

That's not mean girls, that misogyny on your part.

1

u/Particular-Cat-1397 1h ago

No, but go off sis.

My comment was in response to the study that female nurses being present did not reduce the amount of degrading remarks about patients.

Also, the surgeon that this lawsuit was about was a woman, so try again.

0

u/Commercial_Sun_6300 43m ago

The comment we were both discussing compared the behavior of surgeons in the presence of female nurses vs female doctors, which heavily implies the surgeons speaking are male.

>My comment was in response to the study that female nurses being present did not reduce the amount of degrading remarks about patients.

Yeah, and saying it's cause the nurses are mean girls rather than the much more obvious reason: they have less power.

1

u/Dry-Independence8815 16m ago

Facts. I wish every nurse Knew that

0

u/ThatIs1TastyBurger 4h ago

Holy fuck why is this so true?

4

u/Sothdargaard 3h ago

I feel like this is pretty rare honestly. It's anecdotal of course but I assist in surgery (not a doctor) and have worked with hundreds of surgeons. I only ever met one who did this kind of stuff and it turns out he was SA patients in his clinic and got arrested so him talking crap about his patients was the least of their concerns.

I also work in the western US so I don't know if the attitude is different in the Midwest, South, Eastern US etc. but this behavior is pretty rare in my experience.

Also I'd like to point out there are tens of thousands of doctors in the US and they end up on the news or in court pretty rarely. Obviously there are some scumbag doctors out there and some of them get away with it but I would honestly guess it would be less than 2-3%.

Edits: phone typing corrections

-1

u/keygreen15 2h ago

I feel

Just stop right there.

3

u/Sothdargaard 2h ago

I mean, it's just an expression. I could have easily said: In my experience.

Which is exactly what I shared.

1

u/horriddaydream 4h ago

Yup, and also noting that a lot of surgeons vote red. That goes hand in hand. 🫠

1

u/englishmaninsungurlu 40m ago

During my first year in medical school, I was sent to observe the plastic surgery OR. The first surgery I observed had all female surgeons, nurses and other staff. They were preparing an unconscious woman for liposuction. One of the residents said “why is her pussy so fucking dark”. Noped the fuck out of there and reported it to the attending. People can be evil in this business

161

u/MiI0rd 8h ago

Corporate mentality really. Governments are not what we should fear, it’s company’s

53

u/Bhavacakra_12 7h ago

Not necessarily wrong but I would fear the gun as much as the person wielding it.

5

u/Writer13377 6h ago

Canadian here, it’s so much fucking worse when it’s the government, at least you can sue a company

5

u/longlivenewsomflesh 6h ago

I can see why it might seem that way, but as an American, having the right to sue a company like facebook doesn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling that convinces me there's no sense in socializing it because god forbid I wouldn't be able to leverage my awesome and meaningful power to effect change by personally suing them... like come on, seems silly to pick a strategy of "blindly trusting sociopathic corporations which exist by definition to extract profits" over just focusing on making government work better...

1

u/Writer13377 6h ago

Might be a Nobel prize in it for you if you can figure out a way to make governments work

5

u/longlivenewsomflesh 6h ago

See but this what I find illogical like why take this fatalistic approach to something that's difficult (improving systems for public good) when the alternative is to put our trust in something 100% guaranteed to be not even useless but actively bad for humanity (private sector's profit motive) 

3

u/how-2-B-anyone 5h ago

There are more sides to this; it would be lovely if people could agree on what public good means. Partisan politics and lobbying are the real enemy of that consensus. How are we supposed to agree on anything if the baseline is a VS not an &? I agree with you but for me the fatalism is understandable because "many a better person" has tried and failed, or died and their progress overwritten the second a new corporate aligned government issue came about, especially in the US but it is not exclusive to our very loud examples. Another lovely example is to look at the differences in Communism as a philosophy vs its various attempted implementations throughout history. Ideals are great, but few in power [read: financial security and titled authority] have enough enough understanding or empathy to employ them constructively beyond a personal level.

We as humans shouldn't trust anything that has an overall goal of "financial profit", in the private or public sector, in a government or a corporation, there is nothing meaningful about a numbers game while living needs exist.

1

u/Writer13377 5h ago

One of those entities orchestrated the Holocaust, one of the, created the devices that allow us to communicate instantly across the planet

-2

u/Heseblese 6h ago

Well, sure. But Americans could also choose to focus on making companies work better. Facebook don’t exactly operate in a vacuum.

1

u/scraw813 5h ago

People sue the government in America all the time. It’s how we lose most of our progressive policies. Even the president has sued the government.

There was a good freakonomics episode about how China engineers laws and Americans sue to make laws.

2

u/Writer13377 5h ago

You can sue in America precisely because they are this kind of system, you hand the government even more power over life and death, they’re pretty prone to making sure you can’t take it away

1

u/DontRateLimitMeBro 3h ago

while it is kinda crazy that the president can sue the government, your point about losing progressive policies due to citizens suing the govt. is wrong.

Right gained or protected Supreme Court case
Right to attend public schools without racial segregation Brown v. Board of Education (1954)
Right to interracial marriage Loving v. Virginia (1967)
Right to same-sex marriage Obergefell v. Hodges (2015)

there are many many more examples.

1

u/scraw813 1h ago

There are plenty where we’ve lost them too. Look at recent voting rights act decisions. Look at overturning of Roe. Courts are consistently rolling back the power of regulatory agencies to enforce the progressive agenda.

So if anything. The courts are erratic.

Edit to add: Don’t forget the Supreme Court castrating the Affordable Care Act

1

u/Sweet_Solid_7746 4h ago

In America company’s fucking own the government

1

u/Writer13377 4h ago

Ohoho you do NOT want to bitch about companies owning the government to a Canadian. We started as a collection of monopolies, and we will die as we lived

1

u/MiI0rd 3h ago

Can you? Sign up for Disney plus free trial and unknowingly sign away your ability to sue and automatically agree to arbitration.just one example of too many you don’t want to know about

1

u/DontRateLimitMeBro 3h ago

you can't sue the government?

1

u/aptsys 5h ago

Finish the sentence then...

1

u/phlegmdawg 5h ago

How about a government working for the companies instead of the people?

1

u/Gendum-The-Great 5h ago

Governments hold the monopoly on violence and some have nuclear weapons.

1

u/ActualCommon3820 4h ago

The biggest lie of my childhood was that governments were evil and if the government got out of my way I would be as successful as ole Sam Walton.

1

u/Comfortable_Yak_1687 2h ago

How about both??

51

u/PurpleDragonDix 5h ago

When my daughter was being born, I can recall the nurses telling my mother to put her phone away and couldn't record the birth of her grandchild in case there was malpractice.

Good thing we caught that little line within the video because nothing could've stopped my mom from recording even if it was hospital security.

18

u/BorgQuingus67 2h ago

That's actually crazy "you can't record us in case it captures evidence of us doing something wrong" lmao what the fuck

54

u/Steephill 6h ago

Medical malpractice kills far more people per year than police do, no one should be surprised the medical fields doesn't want to be recorded.

11

u/Rasabk 3h ago

Alright reddit, your time to shine. ADAB baby!

17

u/Key-Abbreviations961 6h ago

Cop behavior has improved dramatically since body cams have become ubiquitous

1

u/tiramisuem3 56m ago

Do you have data to back this up? I remember reading a study actually saying the opposite, that cops just turn them off and that shooting of civilians has not decreased

6

u/PartyWooden6249 8h ago

I think about 5% of American doctors are good people and 95% of them want to be demigods. It’s like becoming a Priest

9

u/shoulderpain2013 5h ago

As an American doctor, you are referring to surgeons. The vast majority of other physicians don’t have this complex.

-4

u/PartyWooden6249 5h ago

I said what I said

2

u/Anthemusa831 7h ago

Hard agree

3

u/Check_Me_Out-Boss 7h ago

I honestly don't care what my surgeon says while I'm unconscious.

Just do my procedure.

34

u/TheSumOfMyScars 7h ago

I mean if they're discussing how to lie to you to have to go chase a false diagnosis, I'd think it'd be in your best interest to not have them do that, no?

-5

u/Check_Me_Out-Boss 6h ago

Did they lie to him?

5

u/AmericanWitness 6h ago

…. Did you read the title, Boss?

1

u/Slayerofgrundles 4h ago

It may have been in poor taste, but they were clearly joking. Nobody is giving false diagnoses for laughs.

-6

u/Check_Me_Out-Boss 5h ago edited 2h ago

This post is just some words and a picture. Did someone post an article, boss?

Edit: that guy edited his post from "article" to "title" after I made my comment.

1

u/masimbasqueeze 4h ago

I agree patients deserve better. The issue with surreptitious recording is that I creates an adversarial relationship which Harms patients and doctors alike. Defensive medicine is often not what is best for the patient. We need a better relationship all around.

1

u/Pug_Defender 4h ago

sometimes you gotta blow off some steam with coworkers without some dweeb making a big deal out of it!

-16

u/TyruntasaurusRecht 8h ago

Enh. I think when no ones listening its reasonable to joke and in healthcare I expect it would be dark humor given what they do and see.

Its not some gotcha moment. I assume they do this because its human. The lawsuit is ridiculous.

Make fun of whatever you want, but fix whatevers killing me please. Id rather a sarcastic, shitty, but competent doctor than a teddy bear that will kill me. Customer service and manners, especially in a specialists office dont matter to me. "What are your outcomes?" Matters to me.

28

u/Reasonable_Sky9688 8h ago

It's entirely reasonable to expect both professional behaviour and competence

-14

u/TyruntasaurusRecht 7h ago

I can have my own opinion, thanks.

10

u/Anthemusa831 7h ago

As is the person whose comment you responded to.

First day here?

3

u/Reasonable_Sky9688 7h ago

Yes you can, it gives sensible people a foil to reflect on

11

u/Aurorer 7h ago

The lawsuit was specifically about the doctors planning to give the plaintiff a false diagnosis. Which should result in the revocation of everyone’s medical license.

-9

u/TyruntasaurusRecht 7h ago

Did they actually diagnose him with that though or were they joking?

14

u/Aurorer 7h ago

The doctors claim they were “joking”. But that’s not a good defense. If it was, I could conspire to commit arson and then just tell everyone I was joking to get out of it. Our legal system has to assume that what people talk about doing is actually true in order to hold anyone accountable.

274

u/DeltaVexp 8h ago

Surgery or any operation involving a knocked out patient should absolutely be recorded.

A reminder that millions of unauthorized pelvic exams were carried out on anesthetised women WITHOUT their consent by medical students. A woman undergoing wrist surgery was subjected to a fucking pelvic exam by a student while she was unconscious.

131

u/TillyFukUpFairy 6h ago

At 16 was having investigation for acute ectopic pregnancy. Given a bunch of morphine, wheeled of for internal ultrasound without a chaperone. I came round to the tech saying 'I bet you enjoy that, slut'. This was before phones, but I still record all medical appointments and refuse morphine.

63

u/Lemon_lemonade_22 6h ago

I'm so sorry this happened to you. Disgusting doesn't even begin to describe it.

23

u/TillyFukUpFairy 6h ago

Thank you. I was a long time ago, luckily it only has real limiting effect in very specific situations.

-6

u/BlubDerp 5h ago

I love your responses to the asshats not believing you. It was funny with the first one, and then you doubling down and using the same insult again really added to it a lot

5

u/TillyFukUpFairy 5h ago

Did you know you can make someone's day by taking a walk off the edge of a cliff?

-3

u/BlubDerp 5h ago

Im not sure why you feel the need respond like that to me, if it was because what i said came off as sarcastic, it was not meant to be

5

u/TillyFukUpFairy 5h ago

Reread your comment, it comes across as supportive in the first part and then piss taking in the second.

-16

u/aptsys 5h ago

That sounds rather far fetched

13

u/TillyFukUpFairy 5h ago

Take your head and boil it

-18

u/UnitedAd7254 5h ago

Some of the stories ya'll make up are ridiculous.

16

u/TillyFukUpFairy 5h ago

You can boil your head in piss

9

u/iambetweentwoworlds 5h ago

How nice to live in a world where you don’t have to deal with this stuff that happens to us, and you get to put your head in the sand by thinking we lie. I believe her because of the horrific stories I have of my own. If you don’t do this kind of stuff but don’t believe us when we say it happens, are you really a good guy?

18

u/wasabiburning 3h ago

I've had recovery nurses treat me like garbage and yell at me for not following instructions... as I'm puking from anesthesia recovery. But I was too dazed to be able to defend myself.

7

u/Geawiel 1h ago

I had my entire colon removed, and a J pouch formed. It took 3 terrible surgeries. I already have severe nervous system damage from chemical exposure in the AF.

The surgeries wiped out my strength and energy. I was having severe trouble keeping hydrated and had to go in for IV fluids a lot. Every appointment I had with the surgeon was difficult to get to. My wife was holding me up and helping me walk each time.

The doc was an ass. "What is wrong with you this time?", as I'm barely able to hold myself up and shaking. Every damn appointment was like this. For a solid 10 days after the second surgery, swelling an inflammation was so bad I felt like I was being gutted alive. Yet this dude expected me to be all fucking rainbows and unicorns.

One of the times I went into the ER for fluids, they did a CT and found a giant blood clot in my abdomen. It was about 5 inches in diameter. They freaked out and sent me to in patient.

Doc came in the next day. "Why are you in the hospital now?", with a flat tone like I was somehow at fault. He said it was normal to get giant clots after abdomen surgery. How the fuck am I supposed to know this? I'm a patient, not a medical professional. I got ER guys freaking out and sending me to in patient. Wtf am I supposed to do? "Nah doc, I don't want to anger the surgeon gods."

This isn't even the most egregious I've been treated by a medical professional (doc or otherwise). I'm not a shitty patient either. I'm pretty upbeat, despite all my issues. Joking, trying to make light of a shitty situation, trying to make the day a little better for those around me. That's me. So I never can understand the animosity.

8

u/JustMoreSadGirlShit 6h ago

and here i am fighting to get anesthesia for a pelvic exam 🫩 i hate this

7

u/Fectiver_Undercroft 7h ago

I can think of a very small number of ways this could charitably be said to have happened by accident. How did this come to light? Did they try to bill her?

18

u/WVildandWVonderful 6h ago

It’s not “by accident.” It’s just not disclosed.

There is an entire Wikipedia article about this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelvic_examinations_under_anesthesia_by_medical_students_without_consent

2

u/Fectiver_Undercroft 3h ago

Yeah, 3.5 million occurrences gets us well past the regime of “very few honest mistakes.”

Thank you for the link.

6

u/crumpledCrow 7h ago

Google it.

1

u/Afraid_Equivalent_95 2h ago

wtf this is really scary

-4

u/Mylifeasasavannah 6h ago

I’m super interested as to where in the country these unauthorized pelvic exams are happening. Working in the medical field I have never heard of or seen unauthorized pelvic exams that would be unrelated to immediate life saving care. I am a woman and would really like to know the true source beyond a news channel segment.

3

u/ImpossiblePlan65 5h ago

Use google. And a lot of states have now banned the practice.

2

u/Mylifeasasavannah 5h ago

That’s good! I was more envisioning a line of students trying out their pelvic exam skills which was an appalling thought and not something I’d seen before, I was confused. I guess I also never realized when they were reading off consent for aspects of the procedure it meant only the specific doctor and not the resident or possible attending. This wiki article was informative.

1

u/elitesense 2h ago

This is why it's important to look things up before taking the time to write a dumb comment

-9

u/[deleted] 7h ago

[deleted]

6

u/DeltaVexp 6h ago

I'm more concerned about the headline "Florida surgeon removes a patient's liver instead of his spleen."

-1

u/[deleted] 6h ago

[deleted]

2

u/liberal_parnell 5h ago

It happened in late 2024, and the surgeon was convicted this year. He had previously made other massive errors during surgeries, but was not punished.

-75

u/No-Alternative4612 8h ago

Don't go to a teaching hospital if this bothers you? And I guess get ready for worse Healthcare for women if the objection becomes widespread.

55

u/NearSightedLlama 8h ago

The idea that medicine can only move forward by continuing to subject women to procedures against their will while unconscious in insane and disgusting. Get some help

32

u/DeltaVexp 8h ago

Sounds like a medical student who violated some unconscious women for his "training".

5

u/Fectiver_Undercroft 7h ago

Welcome to Crazy Town, where that’s seen as the right answer to “well, obviously all early medical research had to be done on male cadavers because digging up female ones was too hard to explain. Let’s just assume male medicine applies to women; what could go wrong?”

-35

u/[deleted] 8h ago

[removed] — view removed comment

35

u/NearSightedLlama 8h ago

Again, they did NOT consent to it. Under exactly ZERO circumstances, even in a teaching hospital, should a woman go in for wrist surgery and come out having a pelvic exam simply cuz it was better for the student.

-33

u/No-Alternative4612 8h ago

We have institutional autonomy. You're 100% welcome to go elsewhere.

30

u/BloodLossMinimal-ish 7h ago

“We” ? You’re implying youre a med student or doctor? As a doctor I am appalled that you think this means you may do any medical exam or procedure. Part of the “informed consent” sheet is the ~informed~ part. Sensitive exams and any procedure with risks should always be disclosed as a possiblitiy in that part. Hence why we often include “possible xyz, possible endoscopy, possible colonoscopy, possible pelvic exam, etc”

21

u/Nihsvabhav 7h ago

autonomy to give unauthorized pelvic exams?

20

u/NearSightedLlama 7h ago

I hope you never touch another person again in your life, much less hold any sort of medical authority over someone. This is disgusting, and whoever convinced you it's "normal" or "fine" should also lose their license

-4

u/No-Alternative4612 7h ago

Maybe let the professionals decide on how to practice medicine, we've had enough interference over this particular bit of nonsense. Luckily the mob got distracted by the next thing before my state joined in.

16

u/Anthemusa831 7h ago

Maybe this is why the public consensus here is that medical professionals are egomaniacs and have superiority complexes.

→ More replies (0)

4

u/JustMoreSadGirlShit 6h ago

you see why so many of us are afraid to go to the dr, yes?

0

u/No-Alternative4612 6h ago

Medical care in this country has more important things to worry about than handholding people that would rather wallow at home than seek care.

Though on this specific issue, I've seen far more evidence that men are the one's hesitant to seek care.

6

u/JustMoreSadGirlShit 6h ago

what an incredibly narrow view point from someone pretending to be a dr online i’m so surprised

→ More replies (0)

-32

u/ChallengeEnough1656 8h ago

You know how many pieces of paper and disclosures you have to sign before you go into surgery? I’m willing to bet money there was some fine print that allowed it to happen when the patient signed.

15

u/Anthemusa831 7h ago

Do some research.

3

u/_i_read 6h ago

There wasnt. Look up the case.

3

u/dyslexicwriterwrites 6h ago

If that was the case, the article wouldn’t be calling it “without consent” since that’s libel (and sue-able).

14

u/Anthemusa831 7h ago edited 7h ago

Hey MAN, I hope they perform a sounding on your penis next time you are unconscious at the hospital getting a random procedure done.

5

u/Beaut1830 7h ago

It's clearly a troll

19

u/Slow-Swan561 8h ago

The problem is the lack of consent not the procedure or who did it.

-7

u/No-Alternative4612 8h ago

Again, there are plenty of non-teaching hospitals.

1

u/Aphreyst 5h ago

📢🚨TROLL ALERT

32

u/Eldoran401 8h ago

This is such a dumb take. It's good that students get the training they need... but you NEED to have consent. And what if one screws up and causes lasting damage... but bc the patient didnt know, they are now saddled with problems and no recourse from who did it

-13

u/No-Alternative4612 8h ago

Lasting damage from a supervised pelvic exam? Being hit by a meteorite is at least comparably likely.

10

u/Dangerous-Crow7494 7h ago

“Don’t go to a teaching hospital if you’re a woman and don’t want to be raped” yeah, I won’t. 

6

u/antonio3988 7h ago

Lol bro wtf

3

u/AverageGardenTool 6h ago

Right wtf is wrong with them. They are STILL defending unconsenting exams by going "well just go to a woo woo doctor".

This is actually one of the reasons we have less trust for the medical profession Jack ass.

5

u/dyslexicwriterwrites 6h ago

Idk babe, I think “don’t touch without consent” and “don’t do any procedures the patient hasn’t approved” are pretty important things the hospital should be teaching.

1

u/No-Alternative4612 6h ago

"Alternative medicine" where a friendly woman waves crystals in your face is always an option.

1

u/dyslexicwriterwrites 1h ago

Waving crystals in my face versus sexual assault & untrustworthy docs. How could I ever choose?

16

u/BloodLossMinimal-ish 7h ago

Hey so recent grad doctor here and no. Yes if you are getting a gynecological surgery and a med student is part of your care, yes they may do a pelvic exam after the resident/attending in order for education as you are advised during the surgery you will receive pelvic exams. Parading students not a part of the care OR even worse, doing an unneeded/unrelated pelvic exam is absolutely inappropriate in all education settings.

9

u/DeltaVexp 7h ago

>they may do a pelvic exam after the resident/attending in order for education as you are advised during the surgery you will receive pelvic exams

Incoherent response. I've outlined nonconsensual pelvic exams conducted on patients under general anesthesia i.e the patient wasn't aware that such a test would be conducted and informed consent wasn't provided.

>Yes if you are getting a gynecological surgery

Not necessarily. Unauthorized pelvic exams were also done on patients undergoing non-gynecological surgeries.

>Parading students not a part of the care OR

That's.... incorrect. Many medical students on rotation were instructed by the attending doctors or residents to carry out the PE on unconscious patients, as part of their training, as conducting the test on a patient with relaxed muscled under general anesthesia would give the students better training and knowledge of the anatomy, some medical students reject doing this btw.

>unneeded/unrelated pelvic exam is absolutely inappropriate in all education settings

Glad we agree. The practice was outlawed in roughly half of the U.S., but it's still somewhat widespread.

1

u/BloodLossMinimal-ish 6h ago

Hey bro, again I am on your side. During informed consent a patient is informed that a med students/resident is a part of their care and will be in the OR aka assisting with any part in the OR deemed appropriate for that student/resident’s level/competency. I am not denying the systematic abuse of lack of consent in the past or anywhere currently that is practicing so unethically, I am refuting this random so-called doctor saying “this is within the institutional autonomy of teaching hospitals” cause as I agree with you and in being a practicing surgeon, no it is not and should not be. Calling it “parading students” was used intentional to show the unethical nature of the practice that has been documented in the past.

Direct your frustration and anger at the dude saying it’s normal at teaching hospitals

-2

u/No-Alternative4612 7h ago

"Parading" is reductive and begging the question. We've adapted to the "new" federal guidelines along with everyone else.

11

u/BloodLossMinimal-ish 7h ago

If you have then you should know that pelvic exams or other sensitive exams require “Explicit consent is required specifically when these exams are conducted for educational or training purposes and are not part of the necessary surgical or medical procedure itself” that would include the WHO. aka stating the medical student is xyz who will also be present in the surgery and performing exams along with the doctors NOT a medical student may perform an exam and then bringing in multiple students who are unrelated to this patient’s care just to do an exam since the patient is there

Again in medical education, those A PART of care is within informed consent. Bringing in random students just to do an exam for practice is not

2

u/DeltaVexp 7h ago

I mean, it's kinda funny that you deny the existence of the practice when u/No-Alternative4612 have actually done quite a few PE's on patients without their knowledge back when he was in medical school.

2

u/BloodLossMinimal-ish 6h ago

Hey I think your comment is misdirected? I’m not saying it has never happened, I’m saying that is not within institutional autonomy or the HHS guidelines for sensitive exams. I am the one (as a doctor) saying bringing in unauthorized, unrelated medical students is unethical and combatting his belief that it falls within teaching hospital autonomy

0

u/DeltaVexp 6h ago

No, it's appropriately directed. The HSS did issue a mandate requiring hospitals to obtain clear consent prior to such procedures (only in 2024) but doing those unauthorized procedures absolutely does fall within teaching hospital autonomy, so that creep is sadly right. As in the practice is/was completely institutional. You're saying it's unethical but tacitly suggesting that it's carried out by rogue actors but denying that it's institutional, which is completely false.

1

u/BloodLossMinimal-ish 6h ago edited 5h ago

Uhhh so no - clear consent is required, meaning unauthorized procedures opens a hospital to litigation and potential penalties by the joint commission regardless of private or teaching hospital

Doing a pelvic exam on a wrist surgery patient would be considered assault

Edit to add: retroactive litigation for something in 2010 wouldn’t be possible but current? Yes, unless you could prove medical indication such as in a general surgery, if we had concern for a vaginal wall injury, we may do a pelvic exam that wasn’t discussed prior to ensure no apparent full thickness vaginal wall injury (however usually at that point if we suspected, we would call gyn instead of doing it ourself)

1

u/No-Alternative4612 7h ago

To be fair, the "rule" is actually just a few years old.

-2

u/No-Alternative4612 7h ago

Right, that can mostly be worked with in my experience. Various states of enacted much more onerous requirements.

3

u/SecondBreakfast428 5h ago

Let's sexually assault women for the sake of medical progress /s

1

u/PersephoneHazard 5h ago

If I was asked whether or not a student could give me a pelvic exam while I was under for training purposes, I would consent. My local hospital is a teaching hospital so I've had quite a few "can this student observe/try/etc" requests throughout my life and I have always said yes.

If I found out this had happened without my knowledge or consent while I was vulnerable and unconscious, I'd feel horribly violated.

Surely you can see that those are different things?

289

u/TheModWhoShaggedMe 9h ago

Mass surveillance in every avenue of society except where it's often needed the most.

138

u/booleandilemma 9h ago

Organizations are allowed to fuck people, but people can't fuck organizations. This is a core problem with our society. A bank can open up accounts for people who never asked for them and still be operational after the fact. If the ATM gives you extra money by mistake you better return it or you're going to jail for 30 years after they send a SWAT team to your apartment.

55

u/Ok-Donkey-3187 8h ago

Yes they will instantly send out half the force for store/bank robbery in progress and send detectives to figure out the case down the road, but take 30+ minutes to send 1-2 officers when you report an active home invasion and then tell you your insurance should cover it and there's nothing they can do. And then when you find the people who broke into your home and stole your stuff on Facebook with pictures of your missing guitars and gaming systems for sale they say it's a civil matter and remind you that your insurance should reimburse you (this happened to a family I know who lives near me)

5

u/Common-Artichoke-497 6h ago

Cops only protect means of production

Not the workers

They are paid pension bribes to step on our necks, and they are trained to view themselves "over" civilians

17

u/musememo 6h ago

I find it frustrating how easily corporations can break the law and get away with it but private citizens would be fined or jailed if they committed the same crime.

If corporations are now considered citizens, maybe citizens should become corporations.

•

u/LackItGood 0m ago

My grandfather once bought a used car at a dealership, months later the cops showed up at his home saying it was stolen. My grandfather was a pastor and a rule follower to the extreme, and everyone that knew him loved him. He was around 80 when this happened. They were going to take him to jail, without any investigation, despite his ability to provide the paperwork and proof he purchased it in good faith. The only thing that saved him was he because he was a local pastor and one of the higher up police officers heard his name on the radio and was like "there's no way he did anything wrong" and called them off.

Writing this out, it feels like some culture war Facebook copy-paste meme, but I'm sure it happens all the time across the US, but most of the time with much worse results. Also pretty sure whoever had their car stolen didn't get anything in the end.

But this seems to obviously be mostly on the dealership to do their due diligence and not buy and sell stolen cars but they are never even considered in the equation.

The whole US justice system is so broken from the cops to the courts.

26

u/corgiarmies 7h ago

No patient phones. I see anesthesiologists sitting on their phones in the OR constantly.

14

u/tykneedanser 6h ago

Had a back surgery where they wake you up in the middle of the procedure to check nerve response- I was face down and could see my anesthesiologist’s Facebook feed in his lap.

14

u/No_Space_1874 7h ago

Well that makes me feel really safe....

1

u/Pale_Boss_8940 2h ago

they're only there for emergencies tbh

14

u/hipkat13 6h ago

I know this maybe a dumb question and irrelevant, but you typically have to remove all your clothes and they put you in a surgical gown before colonoscopies. Where was his phone during all of this?

11

u/zorbina 5h ago

Sometimes you put all your stuff in a bag, and the bag is placed underneath the bed, so it's always with you.

8

u/byndrsn 8h ago

going for my fourth one and I've never went in with anything but the gown and my socks.

14

u/Radioactive_Doomer 8h ago

To be fair, hearing 4 phone calls and 100 notifications while you're scrubbed in poking around someone's insides or the RF signals fucking with the equipment might be less than ideal. I do think it would be beneficial to record things for teaching and documentation purposes but also to give patients a bit more reassurance because shit like this unfortunately flies under the radar far too often.

1

u/SpunKDH 4h ago

Ever heard of airplanes tho?

2

u/throwaway098764567 1h ago

no what are those?

1

u/keygreen15 2h ago

That's not being fair, because that's not what the law was designed to do, obviously. They care about 500k settlements.

3

u/burnerburnerg 7h ago

I watched YouTube on my phone during my colonoscopy

1

u/Fectiver_Undercroft 7h ago

I had one this week and they said I could bring mine.

They also said they would watch me turn it off before proceeding. But yeah, I was cool with that anyway.

I didn’t even have enough time to launch Candy Crush, but I guess some people can’t go without unless they’re under the gas.

1

u/SabrinaEdwina 4h ago

Wondered about this too. I had to remove piercings for emergency surgery.

Did he stash it in his hospital gown or something? Where and how in God's name did he get a phone into surgery.

1

u/ToWanderHer 4h ago

We mock their idea yet there hasn't been a problem since we stopped taking cameras in there. I think it's working y'all. 

SLASH ESSSSS because people believe this 

1

u/FatPersonAboveThis 3h ago

It shouldn’t be in the first place. Surgery is supposed to be a sterile environment and our phones are dirtier than a toilet seat 

1

u/keygreen15 1h ago

Then put a camera in the fucking ceiling, this isn't complicated. Trust is on its way out the window anyway, I'd want a recording of my surgery to make sure nothing nefarious took place, wouldn't you?

1

u/BuckFuzby 3h ago

Can't even sneak in a recording device up my ass...

1

u/ataraxiaPDX 2h ago

HIPPA and individual state consent laws are good reasons for operations not be recorded by patients. Conversations regarding other patients frequently occur during procedures.

1

u/saltnpepper420 1h ago

what about microphone's tho ? xD

0

u/AliasClimbs 7h ago

No, we dont allow phones in the OR for the same reasons we dont bring in hearing aids, board games, or priceless historical art. 

They WILL go missing, often thrown out with linens, and then we're on the hook for your expensive belongings. The less risk of something like this happening, the better.

0

u/geneticdeadender 7h ago

Someone always has to ruin it for the rest of us.

-5

u/Aztecas_Boy712 7h ago

And this is why recording devices should never be left unattended in medical settings. Imagine finding out what was said about you while you were unconscious.