r/leafs • u/Due_Education4092 • 12h ago
Discussion Reminder: This is Pro Hockey
https://youtu.be/xU1LpaLMS1E?si=w8ECHEesWI1x1BKAThis might be an unpopular opinion based on what I have seen in this thread, idk. But this is professional sports. Players sit sometimes, rookies are not the top of head coaches minds, games develop and the primary concern is not if the players feelings are hurt.
To me this answer from Mckenna tells you everything you need to know about him. Kids a Pro. I think we, as leaf fans need to stop being so hurt when the players are treated like professional athletes.
Personally, sit Mathews and Nylander too if they play like shit.
I do think Hiller mismanaged that game, but I do not think it is critical that the coach isnt thinking about a rookies ice time as much as managing the players on the ice.
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u/OkSheepherder5992 11h ago
For me it’s not about hurting McKennas feelings or anything like that. It’s that I truly believe having him out there could’ve been the difference maker in winning that game.
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u/Due_Education4092 11h ago
He's not wrong though that if you put him out there late in the 3rd when hes that cold, and maybe he causes a goal against, then he is flamed by the media.
At least now the coach has to wear it and the player comes out looking good based on his handling of it.
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u/Pazienca 10h ago
Problem is that that's not s problem for a 18 year old 1st overall pick. He could sit and then skate like nothing, we're not talking about JT
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u/Jonesdeclectice 11h ago
The issue was that he didn’t put him out there early in the 3rd. He had lots of opportunity.
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u/rickrmccloy 11h ago
My main takeaway from this clip is that McKenna is remarkably poised in front of the media, especially for an 18 year old. I don't think that playing in the "Toronto Pressure Cooker is going to bother him at all, which I do recall being a bit of a talking point before the start of the season.
With his play, and his apparent comfort with the media, he really does look set for a long and very successful career in Toronto.
He might work on "the guys working their bags off" bit, though, even if it did crack me up. :)
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u/Due_Education4092 11h ago
Agreed. Seems to handle the media very well
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u/rickrmccloy 11h ago
I forgot to thank you for posting this clip, btw, so thanks. I think that McKenna managed in this interview to defuse a potentially explosive situation that really none of his fault in it becoming so. Hopefully the Leafs will play well tonight and everyone will forget about the coach apparently having experienced a major brain-fart during the last game. And hopefully the coach will have learned something, as well.
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u/Salt-Plum-1308 11h ago
Hiller had already sat Nylander this season, FYI.
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u/ilovetrouble66 Tavares 11h ago
Sub did not go crazy for that…
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u/Salt-Plum-1308 11h ago
Nope. But to be fair I think that was actually based on something Hiller didn’t like from Willy, like a weak backcheck.
With Gavin it seems he just mismanaged the game. He’s had his warts, but I think McKenna has shown more positive than negative, and he really should’ve been out there. Especially at 4-on-4 or OT.
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u/ilovetrouble66 Tavares 11h ago
I’m still not convinced he really forgot him… I think he was protecting the kid
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u/Marski420 9h ago
Agreed that part makes zero sense. A professional coach knows what's going on and it doesn't add up at all.
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u/Salt-Plum-1308 11h ago
But protecting him from what? He didn’t do anything overly egregious that should have had him sitting the rest of the game.
Went for a steal that he didn’t make and it ended up as a goal, but I don’t think that was worth sitting the rest of the game.
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u/HardstButton2Button Cowan 11h ago
Willy is a vet and been benched before, and there's no scrutiny by the media against him regardless.
There were a couple plays I cringed at from MGK that reminded me of early Robertson that had him barely getting time until he started to stick his nose in puck battles against the boards.
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u/hi818 11h ago
Different circumstances though. It was 10 mins left in the game, and we had a full roster. This time Jim hiller "forgot" and we were already down one man, being forced to play only 3 lines. Everyone got gassed and we conceded 2 goals and eventually loss, most likely due to that decision
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u/Shawnaldo7575 11h ago
I didn't mind the benching until I heard Hiller's explanation why, which was some of the dumbest stuff I've ever heard from a coach. Didn't bench him for anything he did, or to teach him a lesson. He just forgot to put him out there. It's just so dumb.
It made no sense when it was happening. Made less sense when JT was injured... and then even less sense when the Leafs needed a goal.
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u/Due_Education4092 10h ago
Well, its pretty typical when you play hockey if you are line matching or have a bunch of penalties that it is easy to miss some shifts if you are not a top player.
They had a bunch of penalties in a row which automatically sits mckenna for a while. Then consider he is a rookie and likely not Hillers top priority, so he doesn't get him out on the next shift. This has happened to many I know and myself back when I played rep hockey. So now hes sat too long and hiller is worried about getting him out there cold. That I personally find strange, but the speed of pro hockey, maybe he is concerned about another injury. And at that point its probably bottom of the list on his concerns. So its not really that shocking to me.
If this was a pattern then id be concerned
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u/Marski420 9h ago
The fact you're defending a PROFESSIONAL coach for "forgetting" (That's a lie... an obvious one at that) to play our number 1 draft pick when we already went down a forward in the game is inexcusable. You think for 30 minutes of game play he just forgot Gavin existed? Get real.
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u/Due_Education4092 9h ago
I mean, thats not at all what I said. He didnt get him out there because that's what happens when your team gets penalties. Then he thought he was now cold, and didnt play him because of that, which I disagree with. But I dont think its that big of a deal.
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u/SadimHusum 10h ago
the most annoying thing about this McKenna situation is that it’s drawing attention away from the fact that Hiller chose to park the bus up 2 when our defence is clearly the weakest part of this team’s game
We had an entire season of parking the bus last year, we should literally never have a single period of doing it ever again, especially with Tanev out and even moreso that our next best guys are here for their offensive contributions from the blue line; you never turtle with Caber and the 3rd pair as your best actual defenders
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u/Pristine_Office_2773 12h ago
If hiller sits nylander for his poor D play no one would disagree
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u/Ok_Elevator4215 11h ago
Mckenna was fine defensively though so I'm not sure what the point is. You can't be expecting Bergeron out there, he was moving his feet and was an active forechecker. If you can't play him when he's like that then you're just not going to be able to play him in the NHL.
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u/CupcakeUsed4178 9h ago
He was most definitely not fine, we were getting crushed down that side and gave up the neutral zone without any contact on their rush.
You can really tell the ball-knowers vs the frauds in this sub when these topics come up. Just because he didn't have any egregious give aways, doesn't mean he was good defensively.
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u/Ok_Elevator4215 9h ago
I didn't say he was good defensively, I said he was fine. Gavin Mckenna is not going to be good defensively and you're deeply unserious if that's what you expect from him, especially as a rookie.
If Mckenna is putting in the effort, moving his feet and being active on the forecheck while creating well offensively, you take that. If that's not good enough then he's not good enough to play in the NHL. Which is obviously untrue, he's clearly an NHL level player.
The reality is he was having an above average night by his standards so far and most importantly, he was more active without the puck in this game than he has been in most other games. I'm not quite sure what you expect from him there Mr. Ball-knower.
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u/CupcakeUsed4178 9h ago
It's not a development league, especially for the Leafs who are clawing for every point. Obviously he's good enough offensively to play in the league, but is very weak in transition or when we don't have the puck (which is a lot, if not most of the game). Both things can be true at once, it's not like NHL on Xbox where he hits 80 overall and can be trusted fully.
Also, what games have you been watching? He's often 2F or 3F on the forecheck. Whenever he's 1F, the opposing D-man comes out with the puck. Not ripping on the guy but it's no secret a heavy forecheck isn't part of his game, nor should it be.
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u/Ok_Elevator4215 9h ago
Clawing for every point eh? How's that been working out for them? Every time Mckennas been on the ice with the big guys in important moments to claw those points he's been successful. You're right it's not a development league, so stop artificially limiting him just because he's a rookie when he's been getting good results when put in the proper situations.
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u/CupcakeUsed4178 9h ago
I mean he's minus 3 so that's just objectively not true. +/- is a flawed stat of course but remember, he started the year with "big boys" like Nylander and Tavares.
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u/Ok_Elevator4215 8h ago
+/- brought up. Opinion invalid.
Your time was better spent masquerading as a "ball-knower" and competitive sport player than bringing up more than useless stats.
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u/ilovetrouble66 Tavares 11h ago
This sub can be ridiculous sometimes … lots of players get sat. And the reaction to this was ABSURD.
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u/Ok_Elevator4215 11h ago
You don't sit players just to sit them. There was no egregious plays that deserve a full game benching. He was playing quite well by that point.
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u/CupcakeUsed4178 9h ago
Maybe Jim is keeping it between him/Gavin/the team. You're not entitled to a thorough answer, these guys aren't under oath.
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u/Ok_Elevator4215 9h ago
It doesn't matter what it is, there was clearly nothing egregious that was done to deserve such a punishment.
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u/CupcakeUsed4178 9h ago
Such a punishment, my lord. Rookie gets benched, it's not that serious. Gavin seems to have moved on and learned a lot from watching the game.
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u/Ok_Elevator4215 9h ago
Rookie gets benched the entire game you mean. What Nylander got that one game was simply being benched. What Mckenna got was being removed from the game entirely after only 6 minutes. If you want accountability the first step is making the punishment fit the crime.
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u/CupcakeUsed4178 9h ago
I can tell you've never been on any sort of competitive sports team.
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u/Ok_Elevator4215 9h ago
Incorrect. I would say try again but I don't really want to engage any further with scum that would rather try to insult than engage with anything. Sort yourself out.
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u/ilovetrouble66 Tavares 11h ago
If you look at the game cards he actually wasn’t playing well but did he deserve to be benched? Who knows we’re not NHL coaches. MacEwan was also benched and no one gave a fuck!
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u/addicted_to_kombucha 10h ago edited 10h ago
Did you actually watch the game or just read the game card? In the first period he setup Cowan for a grade a, then had one of his own when he and Cowan linked up for a give and go. Also had a nice solo chance off a rush he created outta nothing. He was playing good.
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u/Tarquin11 10h ago
I watched the game. Did you watch any of the times he didnt have the puck in the neutral zone?
He wasnt making high profipe errors but he wasnt exactly playing well without the puck
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u/Ok_Elevator4215 10h ago
Welcome to Gavin Mckenna, if you're gonna bench him for not playing very well without the puck in the neutral zone then he's never going to get ice time.
You cannot expect a player to be something he's not. Mckenna was moving his feet and active on the forecheck. And as you say he didn't make any high profile errors (which is a lot more than you can say about some players on this team who've yet to be benched).
That's really all you can ask for from the guy. So again, not sure why he's benched when he was playing at or above the standard he's set in the year so far and putting in the effort, despite the lack of effectiveness, without the puck.
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u/Jonesdeclectice 11h ago
Which game card? Aside being a -1, the ice was tilted towards the leafs whenever he was on the ice. Look at the on-ice stats for him on natural stat trick.
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u/Ok_Elevator4215 11h ago
I don't care about the game cards. He's generally had bad scores even on nights I think he looks good. I watched the game, there was the article breakdown of his shifts, this was at the very least a standard Gavin Mckenna night. And if I remember correctly the game card I saw had him as a slight positive, which is better than usual, and I assume also skewed because he played so little time and I believe they stack stats cumulatively.
Either way, if you have to bench Mckenna in a game like that where he's playing average to well by his standards, then you have a coach that's essentially just saying he doesn't believe Mckenna is an NHL level player. It's impossible for him to get reps in the league if that's worthy of a bench.
And MacEwan is a fourth liner, as far as I'm aware Mckenna is not and they didn't ruin his college eligibility so he can ride the bench all game and gain nothing of value.
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u/ToasterRouble 9h ago
He played 6 minutes. How often does that happen? How often did Nylander or Matthews or Marner get benched for an entire game even early in their careers? It’s not as normal as you are making out.
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u/SeaLibrary8917 11h ago
Yup. Get ready for zero answers next time. Just "that's between the coaches and the player" from now on rather than accountability and actual explanations.
Ridiculous overreaction to this.
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u/Spaark0 11h ago
I trust Mckenna and he should have been given a spot on line 1.
Nylander Matthews is a good combo.
Tavares is a bit old.
I expected a Cowan/Mckenna matchup. I like Cowan but hes trying to do it by himself just a wee bit too much. Good effort but when you drive to the O-zone and nobody is setup with you. Its either you get one in or their D line is gonna take it back.
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u/Due_Education4092 11h ago
I dont think we should be rushing rookies. Mcdavid and mathews are generational. Most rookies need time to grow and develop in pro hockey.
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u/Ok_Elevator4215 10h ago
Rushing rookies is only bad if they are clearly not ready for it. You have to actually give a reason for why it's not good, saying "well rushing=bad" is just not an argument and isn't inherently true. Mckenna has excelled every time he's on the ice with Mathews. He should be seeing increased ice time with him as he plays well and if he starts playing poorly with a large sample then you ease up and put him back down the lineup.
That's what "not rushing rookies" and properly allowing him to grow and develop would actually look like.
Also Mathews isn't generational lmao
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u/Due_Education4092 9h ago
Have you been watching the games? Flashes of brilliance, great player. Not responsible defensively yet, too many cute moves in the neutral zone. He's a great player, they still should ease in with the top minutes.
If he gets weaker match ups it builds confidence, if he is constantly matched against top wingers and gets burned defensively, the media goes nuts, and the player loses confidence in his skill
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u/Ok_Elevator4215 9h ago
"Yet". I hate to break it to you, in all likelihood Mckenna is a net negative defensively for his entire career. His skills with the puck and ability to get it up the ice will make up for it, but he's never going to be very responsible defensively.
If he gets zero ice time it actually definitely doesn't build confidence. You know what builds the most confidence if I had to guess? Being out there with Mathews and immediately having great chemistry and producing every single time you guys are on the ice together. Maybe do more of that and then ease off of it if he starts struggling. But holding him back for the sake of it when he's excelled at every opportunity with Mathews and on PP1 is pretty ridiculous.
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u/Due_Education4092 8h ago
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
I want to reiterate, I do not think the benching was the smart move, I just dont think the world is ending either, this literally does happen in hockey all the time.
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u/Ok_Elevator4215 8h ago
I don't think anyone's saying the world ending. They're calling it like it is: an unjustified benching from a coach with a history of doing this to young guys. He's rightfully being called out and probably got a much deserved stern talking to from Chayka or Sundin for being incompetent.
I do think it's important to be wary of this pattern, if Mckenna continues to lose out on opportunity despite playing well when it's given, then we have a major issue.
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u/ShillSniffer 7h ago
Most rookies. McKenna is quickly showing he is not most rookies lol. His maturity is beyond what even Matthews was his rookie year, off the ice at least, but on the ice he plays a uniquely talented game. I’m so stoked to see him bounce back and just start racking up the points especially against weaker teams.
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u/irkybirky 10h ago
Mckenna is doing everything right. Hiller just proves he is not a good coach for the Leafs. The players came and talked to GM about it. What message did Hiller give that night. He will lose this room soon and players will coach themselves. If Nylander will snub Berube he won't hold back on Hiller
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u/rageface363 10h ago
My issue with Hiller's coaching this far has less to do with utilizing our younger talent and more to do with his late game deployments. Any kings fan will tell you that Hiller likes to turtle the defence in late game when the team has a lead. What's frustrating is that's not the makeup of players we have to execute this properly. We should be playing to emphasize our stretches rather than compensate our weaknesses.
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u/Pazienca 10h ago
He's just a terrible coach that we'll win nothing with. The constant line juggling is another problem
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u/Mysterious-Bad-2756 9h ago
You said to “sit Matthews and nylander too if they play like shit”. And therein lies the issue that leaf fans are angry about: McKenna was not having a shit game. Go look up Justin Bourne’s article on Sportsnet where he analyzed every McKenna shift before getting benched. As a former NHL player he concluded that McKenna was having a good game and had created multiple scoring opportunities for the leafs.
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u/taa_v2 8h ago
Maybe Hiller felt McKenna just wasn't a good defensive choice? I skipped through the game a bit on replay, so I didn't every single play, watched maybe 75% of it. The two main McKenna moments I have are that shot on goal where he was in the clear, and IIRC, he basically put it dead center into the goalie. And the other moment was him falling down after a generic check.
And that wasn't the first time a basic check knocked him off his feet where other players would be fine and not laying on the ice. Maybe he's not quite ready to play end-of-game grinding hockey against the likes of Power or Thompson at 6'6"? I recall it being reported that Phaneuf told Kadri his first year in training camp out of juniors: next year come back with an NHL body.
I don't question McKenna's offensive ability, but his strength to stop an average NHL player bearing down on him and avoiding just plain getting run over. Of course, if Hiller said anything like that, McKenna would have a bullseye on his back.
Now, am I right? I have a lot of hot takes and I'm not an expert. But I have watched the Leafs for 45 years, and while McKenna holds a lot of promise, Wendel Clark he's not. Maybe more Pavel Bure, who was all offense (and good at it).
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u/Certain_Guide_1481 12h ago
No let’s call to fire him after one single poor game like all the commenters here. Surely that’s the sort of levelheaded thinking we need more of!
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u/Zealousideal-Swing39 11h ago
He has a history of making really stupid decisions
Not just 1 game
Ask La ppl
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u/egamcra 11h ago
So let's fire him and fire Chayka for hiring him
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u/Zealousideal-Swing39 10h ago
I’m not saying he should be fired, He has a history and people should be aware of it
In other words why have miraculous expectations
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u/DrMansionPHD 11h ago
No one here will ever know what the truth is. It could be Hiller's reasoning, it could be Hiller thought he was hotdogging it, it could be he did something that Hiller has spoke to him about a few times... Who fucking knows?
It doesn't matter why, it happened, move on. They play tonight.
I hate being peers with this fan base sometimes. The know-it-all-ness is so fucking annoying to be a part of. You're a fan, be one.
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u/Anonimonkey74 12h ago edited 11h ago
The problem is Hiller's reasoning. Gavin didn't play poorly. He wasn't sat for poor play, as per Jim's own comments. Jim didn't put him out there because of a couple of PK's that he didn't want to play Gavin during, then let the game get away from him as he just sort of... Didn't put him back on the ice. He sat him because he forgot to play him.
Then admitted as much. In a game that started with 11 forwards, which went down to 10 when Tavares was out, which means without Gavin, makes 9 total forwards playing. That means he gassed his remaining forwards by straight up not having a a full line's worth of forwards to play.
That's legitimately horrific game management. Exhaust your remaining players while sitting your tenth for, quite literally, no reason.
Management obviously shouldn't fire the guy yet but let him know he was an absolute moron for that decision and tell him he absolutely cannot make that decision again. Benching because Gavin made a huge, rookie mistake? Sure. Benching because you forgot to play him and now, oh no, he's gone cold on the bench? Never again.
Edit: 12-6, apologies. I forgot he also benched MacEwen.