r/mtgrules • u/Tall-Garbage4066 • 19d ago

Continous effect.

Suppose there is an effect that says, “Creatures you control with power 4 or greater have haste.”

If I control a creature with power 3 that is equipped with an Equipment giving it +2/+2, how is this handled under the current CR?

Continuous effects that modify power and toughness are applied in Layer 7, while effects that grant or remove abilities are applied in Layer 6.

Does the application of the Layer 7 effect cause the Layer 6 effect to become applicable? In other words, is the creature considered to have power 5 when determining whether the Layer 6 effect applies?

Can an effect in Layer 6 depend on a characteristic value that is determined in Layer 7?

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u/peteroupc 19d ago edited 18d ago

An effect of the kind you're describing is not practically functional under the comprehensive rules. If such an effect were to exist, the effect wouldn't take account of layer-7 effects to see what power a creature has. Indeed, see C.R. 613.1, 613.1f-g. Also, the rules for dependency and timestamps under C.R. 613.7 and 613.8 apply only to the case of effects in the same layer or sublayer.

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u/ardarian262 19d ago

While this is the answer, there are some parts within layers, such as devotion and [[Altar of the Pantheon]], which work counter to how the rules should work in theory. It's not impossible for WoTC to make a card that breaks the CR and in fact many do, but this specific way of doing it is unlikely to be done.

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u/peteroupc 19d ago

Effects that modify devotion are governed by C.R. 700.5a. See the rule's example.

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u/ardarian262 19d ago

It's mostly it going in-between layers that do not have sub-layers which I was referring to.

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u/Tall-Garbage4066 19d ago

Thank you! Could you please explain why [[Altar of the Pantheon]] works counter to how the rules should work?

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u/peteroupc 19d ago

Effects that modify devotion are governed by C.R. 700.5a. See the rule's example.

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u/Judge_Todd 19d ago edited 19d ago

Devotion is used for Layer 4 effects of Theros gods and is based on the mana symbols of the objects, which can be affected by Layer 1, 2, and 3 effects and also the effect of Altar. Without 700.5, Altar would apply after the layers and wouldn't do whst it is intended to do.

Even with the rules as they are, it can have an unintuitive result. Attach Song of the Dryads to Altar and it still affects devotion.

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u/ardarian262 19d ago

Normally with layers, nothing can go in-between layers. All of layer 3 applies then Layer 4 applies. But Altar slips between those 2 layers to apply its effect.

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u/Tall-Garbage4066 19d ago

Does this mean that, if such an effect exists, under the current CR, a creature equipped with that Equipment would never be able to gain haste?

Are continuous effects applied only once, progressing through Layers 1–7, rather than being repeatedly reevaluated by going back through the layers whenever a later-layer effect changes a characteristic relevant to an earlier layer?

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u/peteroupc 19d ago edited 19d ago

The ability "Creatures you control with power 4 or greater have haste" won't grant haste to a creature that would have a power of less than 4 in the absence of layer-7 effects. Under C.R. 613.1, "applicable continuous effects are applied in a series of layers in" the order given in C.R. 613.1a-g, without backtracking.

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u/Stef-fa-fa 18d ago

The CR would need an update in order to handle this type of effect. As-written, the CR would only consider effects applied before/at the abilities layer when determining power (ex: copiable effects would work since they apply in layer 1).

The fix would likely be to apply the haste effect in layer 7 (possibly in the counters sublayer), after power/toughness setting is complete. Though this could cause a completely different set of issues related to removing abilities.

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u/MelodicAttitude6202 15d ago

If such a card would be printed, it would propably say "creatures with basepower..." to prevent players from making the mistake of applying modifiers that shouldn't be applied.

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u/Judge_Todd 19d ago edited 19d ago

That static ability wouldn't be printed because it wouldn't have an intuitive result. It would work as an effect of a resolving spell or ability because it would use the completed game state to determine what gets Haste, though it would use "gain" in place of "have"

You walk the layers from 1 to 7 and beyond arriving at the completed game state. There's no going back, changes made as each effect are applied are locked in until the next game state is built.

Dependency can only exist between 2 effects within the same layer.

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u/SconeforgeMystic 18d ago

There was a design article (I thiiiiiiink around GDS3?) where the author said a rite of passage for new Magic designers is making a green card that says “Creatures you control with power 4 or greater have trample” and being told the effect doesn’t work the way they want it to. The solution to this is usually a triggered ability (e.g., “Whenever a creature you control with power 4 or greater attacks, it gains trample until end of turn.”).

If I had to make the haste version, it’d probably be “At the beginning of combat on your turn, […]”