r/psychology • u/mvea M.D. Ph.D. | Professor • 3d ago
New Study Finds Gendered Messaging Can Backfire: Messages that reference gender when highlighting women's success in an activity actually made kids and adults of both genders see girls and women as less capable, and also made everyone less interested in trying the activity themselves.
https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2026/october/new-study-finds-gendered-messaging-can-backfire-.html?challenge=d06e90d7-4d8f-4b88-9d8c-10b73beb60f1120
u/heresyforfunnprofit 3d ago
People tend to know they are being pandered to when it’s that undisguised.
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u/mvea M.D. Ph.D. | Professor 3d ago
New Study Finds Gendered Messaging Can Backfire
Psychology experiments show gender labels don’t enhance perception of women’s participation or their abilities
Campaigns and initiatives aimed at advancing equity for girls and women often reference gender—“The future is female” or “Fight like a girl,” for instance. However, is such messaging effective in championing their abilities and in inspiring others?
A new study by a team of psychology researchers suggests it’s not. It shows that messages referencing gender in trumpeting female accomplishments in an activity can actually diminishperceptions of girls’ and women’s abilities—among children and adults of both genders. Moreover, these messages appear to reduce interest in participating in the activity itself.
“While often well-meaning, gendered messaging does not always promote more positive perceptions of women or girls—in fact, it can backfire, as our research shows,” says April Bailey, a faculty member at the University of Edinburgh and the lead author of the paper, which appears in the Journal of Experimental Psychology: General.
“This doesn’t mean we shouldn’t celebrate women’s achievements—visibility still matters,” adds Andrei Cimpian, a psychology professor at New York University and the paper’s senior author. “What’s counterproductive is highlighting women’s gender as the reason for celebration.”
The thinking behind gendered messaging—such as “Space4Women,” “Women’s Chess Champion,” or “Coding for Girls”—is that mentioning gender sends a positive message because it shows that girls and women are active and successful in a field. However, it’s possible that it can have the opposite effect: By specifically pointing out someone’s gender, a message may suggest that girls or women are unusual or unexpected in that role—if females were seen as a normal part of the field, why mention their gender at all?
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u/OneUpAndOneDown 3d ago
"Even a girl can do it" is one implication. Another is that it's an achievement in an "other" category, like the Paralympics / Special Olympics.
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u/pocketdebtor 3d ago
Yeah, maybe that’s it? The slogans and campaigns they reference just feel so corny to me. The things that actually made a difference for me were stories or real women and girls with names attached to them rather than generic images. And, if it wasn’t specific women or girls - it was a specific activity! Like, I wanted to participate in Google’s coding for girls stuff so badly. I had never even considered the idea, but I thought it would be so cool.
But, disembodied phrases with zero call to action? Idk. I can’t quite articulate all of the reasons why, but it just doesn’t hit the same. I just assumed, being older, I wasn’t the target audience any longer.
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u/Natural-Leg7488 3d ago
Even if you drop the “even” in that statement, it has issues
If something makes a point of saying “women can do this” it implies there is a perception that women can’t do it. It’s a statement in reaction to something else.
Like if a kid randomly says “I didn’t eat the last cookie”, even if they were never asked.
Basically heavy handed messaging can back fire. I’m not sure if it’s necessarily gender specific (although it could be), because some of the examples cited in the study seemed very heavy handed to me.
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u/WhatDoIGottaDo_ 3d ago
This is one of those things where I'm glad it's been researched because it feels so obvious. I always always hated this kind of messaging. It feels either infantilising, tokenistic, or both, depending on the actual message. It makes us feel like an outlier.
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u/AverageGardenTool 3d ago
I just don't see how you champion visibility without bringing it up.
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u/coporate 2d ago
You champion visibility by highlighting success, not by tokenizing the gender.
“Doctor performs incredible surgery” - visibility
“Doctor performs incredible surgery, a first by a woman” - tokenizing the gender.1
u/VishfulTinking 1h ago
It's not 'tokenizing' to recognize that women are still fighting for access to and visibility in many fields and high-ranking positions of power (government, corporate).
For example, women's studies courses developed in the late 60s/early 70s in response to the realization that women's stories were by and large excluded from male-centric telling of history.
All humans are inspired to strive toward great achievements by their heroes and heroines.
Suggesting that women should stfu about their achievements in order to succeed? Is, frankly, horsesh!t.
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u/DiscDocPhD 3d ago
The future is female, to me, has a very different implication than coding for girls, women's chess champion etc.
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u/Rude_Significance355 3d ago edited 3d ago
It's like the joke, "Anytime someone calls attention to the breaking of gender roles it ultimately undermines the concept of gender equality by implying this is an exception and not the status quo."
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u/LonelyPermit2306 3d ago
There's no benefit to men in general. If women rewarded that behavior you'd see it happening instantly as performative males leap for it.
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u/Verksus67 3d ago
I get it. You see this alot in young adulthood where women are celebrated as "girl bosses" for having a job and paying their own bills and boys are called bums if they're not doing at least the same.
I get the intent to celebrate the success of women, but when it's something as mundane as being good at your job,, doing the bare minimum to be a functioning benefit to society or proficient in your craft.. that's kind of the goal and point.
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u/Chaoticallyorganized 3d ago
“Girl bosses” is exactly what came to my mind reading this. It’s so freaking infantilizing. On the other hand, the Women of NASA LEGO set is super cool, but that’s as much of a historical thing than a gendered one. I think in today’s world, we already know that women can and do things that were done traditionally by men so to point out that a woman did something is rather insulting.
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u/Verksus67 3d ago edited 3d ago
The same is done for race too. As a Black man from the south I was treated pretty regularly like anyone else with expectations of social decorum. When I went to undergrad and then did my clinicals in the Seattle area I was pretty consistently looked at like a talking dog and given condescending/racist comments about my success as if I should be homeless or something.
I recognize it was meant as positive intent, but that was my anecdotal experience dealing with internalized racism in that region.
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u/Altruistic_Sail_1991 3d ago
I personally prefer it when they put women in positions that traditionally are done by men without making a big deal out of it. Like, if they released a mechanic Lego set and the mechanic happens to be a female mini figure, but it isn’t brought up as a girlboss/girl power thing.
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u/Verksus67 3d ago
Like in books and stories where being female isn't a defining character trait and instead just portion of their factual description?
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u/InspireToDisappoint 1d ago
Ok but how often are women mechanics tho? Also explain your first sentence more.
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u/Ok-Spinach-6529 3d ago
It’s the same for men being good dads. Basic tasks are celebrated when you are a man, but expected as the default when you are a woman.
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u/Chaoticallyorganized 3d ago
I don’t know why you got downvoted, but you’re right. My husband and I loathed the whole, “Aww..are you giving mama a break?” thing whenever he took our kids somewhere. It’s called parenting, not babysitting. The bar should not be that low for fathers.
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u/Floordove 3d ago
It's like telling men they are soooo special and good men when they take care of their child and not call it 'babysitting'.
Infanitializing.
I'm all for supporting women and making sure they are getting taken as serious as men.
It often reminds me of people. Sigh. I have epilepsy. Some people when they hear it starts convo's with 'omg I'm so proud of you, how you just keep on living, so strong of you, I would have killed myself as soon you got the diagnoses at 9 to not be a burden hahaha guess I'm just not as strong as you!'
Uh yeah thanks.. wtf is this 'I think you should not be alive and are a parasite on society unlike me heehee!' shit.
People not being discriminated; put in places to make anti-discrimination regulations are a bad combo.
I once got as a Christmas present at work when 23, like a secret santa thing, pads. Because 'you women need this and we want to be inclusive'. I don't have a menstruation due to needing to stop it for my health, and if I do why on earth would I use pads for that clearly say on the box 'for urine'. They did not even bought actual menstruation pads..
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u/Chaoticallyorganized 3d ago
“I once got as a Christmas present at work when 23, like a secret santa thing, pads. Because 'you women need this and we want to be inclusive'. I don't have a menstruation due to needing to stop it for my health, and if I do why on earth would I use pads for that clearly say on the box 'for urine'. They did not even bought actual menstruation pads..”
What in the actual hell?? That is so insane, I’m so sorry.
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u/Floordove 3d ago
It's still how it often goes. Many people that want to better the world for women; don't actually ask women.
And if they do; they don't listen.
It goes often even smaller. The amount of chocolate I get because 'women need it'. I'm lactose intolerant and also dislike the taste of chocolate. But somehow women on periods are not actually talking about anything truthful; they just need chocolate. That will keep their mouths busy from whining. Somehow that periods also laste a whole month. But I non-stop get chocolate with the message 'that's what you women want and need right, see how I am one of the good guys and thinking of women'. And some women also do it.
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u/Ivort-DC 3d ago
You just described a participation trophy in sports.
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u/Verksus67 3d ago
Yup. I just don't think we're mature enough as a society to have any real nuanced conversation about our cultural fallouts let alone something like "Hey, you're basically saying people of gender/race/intellect/ whatever are so useless them doing a basic function should be celebrated".
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u/Critical_Success_936 3d ago
Interesting. Maybe it's internalized sexism, maybe it's just because pointing something like that out unnecessarily can feel a bit othering, even with the best of intentions. I always really hated getting candy for completing assignments as a kid, because it kind of just felt like an insult to my work to receive that instead of, idk, professional feedback?
I think a lot of people just want to be taken seriously. Bringing up that "a woman did this!" when it has nothing to do with gender kind of feels the same way as someone patting you on the head - just very diminutive
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u/momomomorgatron 3d ago
I dream of the day where people are in positions from skill alone, not due to their sex, gender, sexual orientation, or ethnicity.
I'm so fucking tired
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u/Critical_Success_936 3d ago
I mean, I think there is SOME value in choosing people for things outside of merit. If every single person on your team is a white American man, for instance, and your most qualified candidate is another white American man... It can add value to the team to choose the next runner-up if even one of those things isn't true.
Of course, we can't stereotype everyone's experiences based off of what they appear as on paper. I'll use myself as an example, since I could fit "white American male":
I'd consider myself white culturally, because most people read me as white and the half of the family I talk to is white, but genetically I'm only half, so in some ways I relate a lot to the indigenous people I share blood with, at least on certain health-related issues.
I'm American, yeah, although I grew up in an Eastern religion, which was a VERY different cultural experiences than most Americans - it fundamentally changed the cultural norms I grew up with, everything from PDA to my views on social obligations, to food waste, to clothing... I've "Americanized" more, but there's a lot of things I can't relate to other Americans on, not just viewpoints but unconscious expectations.
Finally, male... Yeah, but I'm trans. This will be a huge gap between me and others, both between cis men and women. I do consider myself fully male, but there's a lot of experiences I didn't get to have, and a lot I did, due to sex assigned at birth.
Tl;dr: I think diversity is sometimes valid in things like hiring decisions, but it's not the end-all be-all, and you might miss out on someone with unique experiences if you only focus on who they are "on paper."
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u/pocketdebtor 3d ago
I like to think of experiences themselves having merit. There is merit to having navigated the world differently and the lessons learned along the way. That is a perspective that has been earned, whether someone has asked for it or not, and it can provide incredible operational context, insight, and lead to great professional contributions if respected. I like working with people that ask different questions and help me take new or innovative approaches to things.
Obviously, to your point, it varies, and credentials still matter, but I do see a lot of value in having variety and individuality valued in the workplace, even if calling it “diversity” weirds people out for some reason.
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u/Abnormal-Sleep-0838 2d ago
Do you think trans women should not get DEI initiatives in, say, a tech company’s hiring process, based on your socialization argument?
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u/Critical_Success_936 2d ago
Where did I say that? I just said a trans woman is going to have unique experiences that won't be reflected merely by her demographics. If the entire team is trans women already, then yeah, they might miss out on unique perspectives offered by cis women, cis men, or trans men. My point is her identification will likely either say "male" or "female", and neither will actually fully sum up her experiences, which do bring value to a team as long as they're unique.
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u/pocketdebtor 3d ago
I like to think of experiences themselves having merit. There is merit to having navigated the world differently and the lessons learned along the way. That is a perspective that has been earned, whether someone has asked for it or not, and it can provide incredible operational context, insight, and lead to great professional contributions if respected. I like working with people that ask different questions and help me take new or innovative approaches to things.
Obviously, to your point, it varies, and credentials still matter, but I do see a lot of value in having variety and individuality valued in the workplace, even if calling it “diversity” weirds people out for some reason.
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u/Critical_Success_936 3d ago
Yet here you are bringing political labels into a study that has nothing to do with politics... Ok...
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u/PapixChuloxD 3d ago
That goes against human nature and will never ever happen. Stop fooling yourself.
You can't override nature with ideology.
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u/whale_and_beet 3d ago
Yes. I think part of it is that women want to be treated as people, celebrated for their accomplishments regardless of their gender. I know for me I don't like my gender to be highlighted, although I do enjoy praise and success! But I'm also not a particularly girly girl, so when someone slaps the label girl on an activity I actually cringe a bit.
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u/blu453 3d ago
When I read that knowing that most people are sexist, including women, that was the first thing that came to mind. They're sexist. It's crazy that other people are just being sexist in the comments trying to explain the reasoning of this study's finding.
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u/Fair-Anybody3528 3d ago
It’s so interesting because I find the idea that women, people of color, & ppl who are apart of the LGBTQ community are expected to give acknowledgement to “their community” by being asked to frame their accomplishment through the lens of their gender, race, or sexual orientation when they accomplish something to be more prejudiced than anything.
Like “Oh, don’t forget to humble yourself before actually talking about the work you are winning an accomplishment for by acknowledging that you’re one of the few “of your kind” to actually make it this far. Just by virtue of accomplishing this while not white, male, or straight you’ve now become an honorary activist who speaks for others & instead of just speaking about the thing that you worked hard on & the subject that you love to discuss we first need to have discussions about the traits you were born with, the history & oppression of your whole group from the beginning up until this moment right now, & how the weight of the future success of other people from your group now lies on your shoulders because you’re creating the pathway for everyone like you.”
Meanwhile a straight white male will win an accomplishment & just gets to say things like: “I did this because I’ve always loved it & I’m dedicated to my craft & here’s every detail of how much fun I had while doing this but also how difficult it was to overcome, I hope this inspires everyone to be more excited to face challenges because even if they are hard you will find enjoyment in the process. (Insert generic relatable phrase like “mama and daddy always told me if i work hard I’ll accomplish everything I want, you can too”) so I’d like to thank my family & Jesus BYE EVERYONE I’m gonna go have fun at my cool after party now.”
Like yea, which acceptance speech do you think people are gonna wanna listen to more? The short & sweet speech where someone just talks about how they accomplished the thing they’re winning an award for, how happy they are about it, & shares little aspirations to try to hype everyone up OR the speech where half of it is a history/sociology lesson about acknowledging the lives of everyone before them & they don’t get as much time to speak about their PERSONAL feelings about their own accomplishment or why they wanted to do it beyond “I wanted to represent others like me?”
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u/Critical_Success_936 3d ago
I mean, I think the othering thing goes beyond JUST sexism, like... Idk, humans love to categorize stuff into boxes. When you point out a "box" or category, I feel like it's somewhat conditioning?
You might watch a show because you enjoy it, simple as, but then you talk to it with your friend and they say "Oh yeah, I love how DIVERSE the cast is!"
Now that it's been pointed out to you, it becomes a lot harder to see the cast of characters as JUST their characters, but as their demographics too. With that, you might take your pre-existing biases and apply it to the characters now too...
I guess this is where the sexism comes in, ^ and yeah, it can be sexism, it usually is, but even well-intentioned people are biologically hardwired to look for patterns. It's like Pareidolia - humans are natural pattern-seekers, so labels have a lot of power.
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u/PqzzoRqzzo 3d ago
Yeah and shouting sexism at studies like this is part of the issue as well
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u/Critical_Success_936 3d ago
I mean, the study's not sexist, but I think it's fair to say that societal sexism MIGHT be a factor in what caused these results?
I'm not a scientist, but I've seen a lot of other studies showing that even women are oftentimes more likely to judge other women for the same behaviors as men. I would consider that almost the definition of sexism to have a double standard like that. If we know both things to be true, it'd probably be worth considering if they play into each other.
I personally think it could be both a degree of double standards from society and, as I said, the othering that praise sometimes causes. Just a hypothesis tho - I don't have the funds to conduct my own study
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u/Benkosayswhat 3d ago
I can feel this happen with me. I’ll read or listen to women trade validations and affirmations and words of congratulation for basic things that people are just expected to do.
Girl, I did all my dishes and my laundry and I fixed myself a snack slayyy
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u/IKnewItfr 3d ago
What’s with all the men vs. women posts lately? They are the majority of science and psychology posts nowadays.
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u/atantony77 3d ago
Its all fucking propaganda these days. You dont get funding unless your study pushes somebodys agenda.
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u/PraireGentleman 3d ago
We’ve always had a lot of psychological interest in gender for the last several decades.
Recent data is revealing gendered patterns antithetical to feminist rhetoric which dominated the space. Whereas women pushed that the world would become better if women were given more privileges, the reality has revealed that gender equality requires helping both genders. Otherwise, you get women out-earning men and complaining en-masse that gender equality programs now are used by their male counterparts. You get women protesting suicide awareness events and mental health holidays because they highlight men’s issues. You get women being more tolerant of transphobia in their movement than men who advocate for gender equality in even conscription. You get more homophobic women. You get women who believe gender equality means they should get everything that men get, regardless of why they get it.
The reason it’s becoming more prevalent is because men are becoming more versed on the topic, which is why women are calling it a gender war instead of healthy gendered discussion or critical feminism; because there are men who are presenting arguments, evidence, or propositions that women and feminists don’t like. They fall back on the theoretical concept of feminism to support what they do when the actual reality shows the opposite
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u/Just-Feedback-2223 6h ago
I haven’t seen a single women call what’s happening a “gender war” like seriously who are you talking to
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u/aguaCompilation1 6h ago
regardless of why they get it.
What??
And show me in what world women out-earn men? This is not reality anywhere. Women have never been able to earn the same as men and they face exhausting discrimination in mens fields.
You just sound like an MRA.
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u/livingdeadgrrll 1d ago
I hope it helps to know that there is a growing movement of women who recognize this issue. Many of us recognize the issues that men and boys are currently facing and realize it isn't a zero-sum situation. We can maintain women's right to vote, fight for bodily autonomy, and support men's education and emotional health.
I do acknowledge that current main stream feminist rhetoric does not reflect what I just said. My point is only to offer hope that the movement will shift towards a more egalitarian set of values in the future. I want to live in a world where all young people feel empowered and the expectations put on them are fair and not gendered.
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u/aguaCompilation1 6h ago
Women were never fighting mens education or emotional health, they were just fighting for their own and the right to not be treated like shit in most rungs of society
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u/livingdeadgrrll 4h ago
I don't mean to imply that. I'm talking about awareness and access and political/social change. It takes people working together to bring about social change. I want to live in a world where young men are pursuing education as equally as young women are. Human rights for all.
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u/aguaCompilation1 4h ago
Women aren't denying men education. Nobody is. Denying someone education is what they're doing in IRAN at the moment to women. Any young man can access education in MOST countries. I can't think of a single country that denies limits this lmfao. Can you????? NOBODY is holding young men back that way. To make it sound like women are denying mens education is laughable. Actually its fucking insulting considering what men have done to women and their educations for most of the last 25k years
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u/InspireToDisappoint 1d ago
What a load… How on earth is it not a zero-sum situation? 🙄👎
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u/livingdeadgrrll 1d ago
I don't see how it is. When I first became a feminist, we brought issues up, then men and women made positive changes. Now men are bringing up issues, and I want to support them with the same support I received.
I'm not speaking to the negatives of the feminist movement. I'm only looking to positive social change and seeing where the people around me need help. And I'm not saying I represent the feminist movement, I'm just saying I'm a person who cares.
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u/MelodicCow2622 2d ago
Reddit is literally ruined by psyop bots. I’ve had to mute hundreds of subs.
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u/Minimum_Hour_7145 3d ago
To understand that, ultimately we have to go back to rifts that opened up on internet discourse during the Atheism+ schism, and ultimately were never actually solved, and ones that multiple generations of grifters now on both sides co-opted their respective movements for. Sargon of A Cod. Anita Sarkessian. Andrew Taint and these relationship tiktok pipelines all funnel people towards their particular flavour of division and just stoke that for financial gain, and no one is actually trying to heal those rifts. We just keep getting further apart.
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u/Chemical_Series6082 3d ago
My sister consumes and regurgitates grifter divisive rhetoric from CNN and MSNBC.
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u/Minimum_Hour_7145 3d ago
Yeah, they're not a lot better than Faux "news" they just serve a different flavour of bullshit. But basically same business model, same business practices. Same business industry.
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u/External-Gur7228 1d ago
Troll farms coming back online
Sole purpose is to sow division.
Pro tip, if you see a post thats sowing division no matter what side, take it with a very small grain of salt, if at all.
Bad actors have been caught setting up groups on both sides to spread confirmation bias and extreme viewpoints and widen the divide. It is slowly eroding western society in a very inexpensive way.
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u/Suitable-Hand-1059 2d ago
Durr hurr... who the hell thought this was a good idea to begin with? You can only hear "first woman to ___" so many times before your eyes physically roll over so far back that you're looking at your own brain.
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u/FabulousLazarus 3d ago
Yeah this makes sense
When literally every piece of media is tripping over itself to tell me any message, I'm suspicious. So when you create content that exits reality, becomes completely inauthentic, and has a ham fisted "WOMEN ARE CAPABLE AND YOU'RE GONNA BELIEVE IT!" kind of message, yeah it makes perfect sense that people don't believe it.
It's like watching the Hallmark channel. It's fucking fake. People don't act like that and we know it.
The disengagement is the most interesting part though. It also follows. It's like when parents come over to a group of kids and start playing with the toys. They don't know how to do it right, it feels awkward, and everyone wants to do something different now. That's EXACTLY what this media feels like. Rather than portray something cool, like a pericardocentesis, they'll focus on the fact that the surgeon is a woman. They trade the thing for the person, and suddenly the thing isn't interesting. Big surprise.
It's all so pointless and counterproductive. And the worst part is that so many gender trends have reversed that this content is largely unnecessary at this point. That's a controversial statement but it's certainly true for medicine that what's actually necessary at this point is to incentivize, not women, but men to go in.
Or maybe we could take a motherfucking step back and realize that just encouraging anyone to go in to these difficult fields is good enough, and maybe if we put the smallest bit of effort forth to divorce ourselves of this contrived gender perspective we view literally everything through, we could come out with more effective messaging on the other side.
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u/lluciferusllamas 3d ago
Cool, now do race. Or how about both? First black female Vice President, anybody? Does that make you feel confident? Oh look, we took the competition pool, eliminated half of it, then eliminated 87% of what was left, and then picked the best one. Why aren't you impressed with the achievement?
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u/Substantial_Echo_636 3d ago
If you celebrate or report on something a little too hard the silent implication is that the event is extraordinary (or a rare occurrence). Further negative inferences can be drawn downstream.
The same problem happens with minorities (or ethnic minorities) in certain places as well.
Everyone thinks they are helping when they draw attention to the differences of people, however if you just treated everyone as equal and reported with as little bias or emphasis of gender and race as possible - it would likely increase cohesion between people.
The insincerity of certain publications with rage bait and engagement bait have exacerbated this problem. listicles and dumb buzfeed tier articles designed to piss people off and draw eyes.
Worse consequences are that people who may be traditionally drawn to certain activities / careers may become disincentivized to apply because they see headlines and think - "huh its a boys ? girls club and i should probably let the other side have a go" - or worse - "I guess they don't want me there".
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u/Mountain_Ad_9415 3d ago
I would think this also applies to both genders, race and sexual preference.
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u/_henceforth_ 3d ago
“The researchers found that these effects were stronger in adults than in children, suggesting that adults are more likely to read between the lines—inferring that highlighting gender means someone is unusual in that setting.”
Why are they assuming the reason here? Considering that the effect was stronger in adults rather than children, there could be other reasons why people felt this way.
“Notably, the effect disappeared when the messages referred to fictional groups instead of real-world genders, indicating that people’s existing beliefs about women and men play an important role.”
So, the fact that existing beliefs play a role, what exactly are those beliefs?
I find it a bit ridiculous that ingrained misogyny or other biases are not even being explored here. Women being highlighted does often feel uncomfortable for me, as a woman, not because “someone being in that role is unusual”, it is since it is inviting criticism.
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u/Stunning-Squirrel751 3d ago
Yeah, if the effects were stronger in adults than children it is telling. Until children are taught otherwise they don’t attribute negativity with differences. And it doesn’t have to be open teaching but their observations of their family and society and how it treats others. And those “lessons” are built upon over time.
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u/_henceforth_ 3d ago
Exactly. Now when I see a female-led movie, I actually get a bit bummed out. It was not always that way. It is just that now I have to hear certain types of people go on about how much it sucks…before the movie even comes out.
It invites more hate that I will inevitably see, adding to every day stress. I try to overcome that, though.
So, yes, these responses are due to ingrained beliefs on some level, and I think it is worth exploring what those are, rather than attributing it to what they did.
Thank you for your response! Loved hearing your thoughts.
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u/Stunning-Squirrel751 3d ago
I can understand the bummed feeling. It makes me angry when I see all the hate and stupidity. It makes me want to watch the movie or show, I want to know if the negativity is warranted.
I will say that female led movies and shows, or even women portrayed where they are not they were the feature, were not always well written or directed. I place that on the gender perceptions of the time (and some continuing), whether male or female written. I think we have come a long way and there is an equal amount of bad entertainment across the board.1
u/_henceforth_ 3d ago
I agree. I will also get annoyed that it felt like there was not even much effort put into the movies. It feels like “we” as women do not get as many “chances” in the first place, and then them being “review bombed”, I think it is called, makes it more difficult. So, unless the movie is amazing enough to overcome that, it makes it harder to get more female-led movies green lit.
Then I feel like the mean people win! 🥲 It is what it is though, you are right that there is lot of bad entertainment across the board. There are a lot of fantastic women characters, whether the movie itself was good or not. That is good!!
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u/DayLive7959 3d ago
Sometimes I wish people would write movies with a male main character in mind, action, adventure, politics, crime, etc., then gender-swap him at the last moment before production begins to a woman.
Sadly, it seems hyperawareness amongst the writers that they are making a female-led movie, as well as their own ingrained sexism, imagining women to express emotions differently, say things that subtly give away perhaps an inferiority complex, etc., can make women-led movies, like the 2016 Ghostbusters, to feel a bit like they're making fun of women.
I don't even think film writers should worry too much about the socialisation differences between men and women. Films are after all aspirational. I feel the entire 'SJW backlash' and stuff which happened because of these movies could have been avoided if the writers gave the female characters respect and dignity, like they would male characters.
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u/Empty-Acadia5874 3d ago
This summary is using "gender" to refer to both identity AND sex. Which one is it?
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u/NeoMississippiensis 3d ago
The fact it took this long to come to this conclusion for the idiots making the stupid ads and press releases is telling.
If every little thing is celebrated it’s trivializing.
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u/ILuvYou_YouAreSoGood 3d ago
Seems simple enough. If one feels the need to celebrate something that is mundane, seemingly commonplace, or not really seeming to happen in people's lives as something unusual then those receiving that message are going to be suspicious. That combined with so much messaging being so hamfistedly obvious and overbearing, makes people naturally take the opposing view.
If the future was female, then people wouldn't need to say so. The sort of earnest and well-meaning people asked to construct such messaging obviously don't realize how it is perceived by those other than themselves. Getting such messages then feel like one is trying to be sold an idea and nobody wants to buy when it is portrayed in such a way.
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u/036b929e 2d ago
People have been saying this and getting hate for saying it for decades. The uncompromising, head in the sand, never take no for an answer mentality can be great... if you're pointed in the right direction. If you're not it just means you're pushing up while pulling down with your fingers in your ears, wasting a hell of a lot of time and money to annoy people for years and years. But I suspect for some that was the true purpose all along.
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u/diddinosdream 2d ago
Phrasing like this always struck me as a more socially acceptable way of saying “this is impressive for a (insert whatever group is being discussed)”. I’m not saying I think people are doing that intentionally, but to me it communicates this feeling that the accomplishment itself isn’t impressive, it’s only impressive that a member of this group was capable of doing it.
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u/ATPHydrolysis93 1d ago
Always knew this as in when we celebrate a woman's success it's typically worded in a way that it was such a surprise and rare occurrence. That women succeeding is an anomaly. When we start treating women who succeed like the norm that goes away.
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u/Proud-Influence-1457 17h ago
Ive always said this from like this example to gays in shows. Just make it normal. Dont force it. Shove it down throats. And i think 99percent of the issues dwindle most cases
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u/reidsays 3d ago
Because of the imbalance of power between the sexes a clear definition of women and their treatment socially had to fill the headlines, when basically the whole point was about each individual being enabled to reach their full potential..
Organisers can get carried away..enrolling for an electrician's apprenticeship none entering the program were told the whole class was female (as this apprenticeship was previously only for males) ... Nor did they know these realities... The class had a special introduction speech with flowers and a bust of a female head sitting on the front desk... So so embarrassing to the point of being annoying... The few women who wanted to enter an electrician's apprenticeship were not part of 'that female world' as assumed.
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u/PhotoEditor871 3d ago
It doesn't actually matter. Men and boys already think women and girls are less capable. The messaging won't change this
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u/Miamalina12 2d ago
So basically what is good is giving sucesses of women the same attention as sucesses of men. But it is important to not call a men winning football team just 'the german football team won' and a women winning football team 'the german women football team won'.
It is othering, and making one the status quo and the other 'specially for a demographic' .
As such it sends the message that women aren't as good.
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u/ZTForge 3d ago
Right, after the illegal gender quota hiring practices, people now assume women didn't earn their positions via merit. This whole situation was very damaging for women's perception in the work force.
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u/Novel-Mission-1920 3d ago
If you talk to people who have been in the HR professional industry for decades, you'll often hear that it can be extremely difficult to judge people on "merit" alone because it's not like some test-score card where you can objectively look at the points they've scored in life and just chose the one with the highest points.
in high level jobs, you'll often be faced with a situation where you have 3-4 candidates who essentially have the exact same skills and ability to do the job, but they just come with different experiences, different personalities, and have some of their own weaknesses and strengths.
It's really not clear-cut which candidate would actually be the best for the job, and in these cases, it's normal that many people without realizing it resort to "vibes", intuition and biases. These inherent biases will often favor people who look more like other people who have previously done the job, so if 90% of those working a similar role are white men in their 40s, our inherent biases will favor white men in their 40s because that appears "safe" on the surface.
So there is already an inbuilt bias that tends to favor the status quo, and by introducing new guidelines that advise you to consider people outside of the status quo as viable options, you're not actually giving the job to someone with less merits, because as I said, they might have equal merits, you're just introducing another factor to consider in your hiring process.
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u/ZTForge 3d ago
The guidelines were not just advising people to be aware of their natural biases, rather they were forcing entire departments of companies to achieve a gender ratio target, e.g. 50% women in software engineering, by nearly any means necessary. Many times, its actually not a toss up between 3 equal candidates. I've seen companies change their entire Interview process to remove technical interviews because they werent getting the demographics they wanted at the end of the process. Either way, putting your finger on the scale to provide bonus points based on unchangeable attributes like race or gender, is illegal discrimination.
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u/KneeGrowonDubs 3d ago
Reminds me of when the Marines did race blind officer promotions, but had to stop because not enough minorities were being promoted. Now they include a picture, and more minorities are being promoted.
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u/ResponsibleMight7669 3d ago
Funny how kids would never hold such an opinion
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u/ZTForge 3d ago
Do you usually build your worldviews based on the opinions of children?
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u/ResponsibleMight7669 3d ago
Most people’s opinions actually are dictated by children that are decades old
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u/ZTForge 3d ago
Speak for yourself
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u/ResponsibleMight7669 3d ago
Becoming an adult means you realize your parents are not only mortal, but fallible. Once you realize that you have room to form your own opinions and worldview.
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u/ZTForge 3d ago
Great work, glad to see you progressing into adulthood.
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u/ResponsibleMight7669 3d ago
I like how you’re going to keep responding with ever-more banal posts as if that isn’t a deeply childish thing to do
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u/roskybosky 3d ago
Mentioning gender smacks of special treatment, and we don’t need that.
Just say put all the good people together, regardless of sex. We don’t need more sexism, even if it’s Atta girl!
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u/Me-A-Dandelion 2d ago
I wonder how much of the results are due to cultural factors. The US is far more notoriously sexist than a lot of non-Americans think, and its diversity is largely on the surface level.
It reminds me of an online conversation I had a few months ago, although the context isn't even about women's empowerment. Someone on Mastodon once told me that she disliked Hayao Miyazaki's films because of Miyazaki's portrayal of women, who are all "strong" and thus unrealistic, a quite weird idea for me. I later learned that this person came from an ethnic minority community in China, which she does not specify but is very likely one of the very conservative ones in terms of their view on gender. Strong and outgoing women like women characters in Miyazaki's films are uncommon in her home community.
In terms of why Miyazaki tends to create women characters in this way, he is actually drawing inspiration from women in his life, especially his mother, with element of mourning in it (Yoshiko Miyazaki (née Yamamoto)'s actual life was far more tragic, due to complications of Pott's disease). There are tons of strong women around me, many of whom are highly educated and I am one myself now, so when we see Miyazaki's women characters, we think, "Well, aren't women like that?"
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u/Former-Investment394 1d ago
Does the effect only happen if it’s women being mentioned? What about Men’s Gazzing Circle, for example? Do they assume the men will be less good at gazzing? If it’s just women, then internalized misogyny is nothing new.
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u/erikien19 3d ago
I think Neil DeGrasse Tyson had it right when he said the best way is to just have the faces there like when he went on the news to talk about some type of space phenomenon and no one referenced how he was black or how this phenomenon affected the black community.