who would you choose and why?

I was reading through ASOS, specifically the chapter where Jon is sent to parley with Mance. Mance gives him his demans which entails letting the Wildlings through the wall.

Then comes this passage directly from Jon's own thoughts:

"Open the gate and let them pass. Easy to say, but what must follow? Giants camping in the ruins of Winterfell? Cannibals in the wolfswood, chariots sweeping across the barrowlanfs, free folk stealing the daughters of shipwrights and silversmiths from White Harbor and fishwives off the Stony Shore?"

Seems really foreboding when you read through. The thing is, Jon has already brought much of the free folk south. Not only that, he also plans to bring more south to aid with manning the Wall and defending the realms of men.

But with his last chapter, Jon seems to havr put that objective on the backburner for a little while as he has proclaimed his intentions to march on Winterfell. Not only that, but he has also effectively rallied the wildlings to fight for him, with many even swearing their swords to him long before the shieldhall.

So if Jon revives and still decides to head south, is that what we'll see. Giants (Wun Wun perhaps if he survives) camping in the ruins of Winterfell, cannibals picking of Northmen in the forests, chariots of free folk raiding the barrowlands, all in the name of Jon Snow?

Now that I’ve read the whole series and consumed so many fan theories over the nearly decade I’ve been I fan I know longer hold this belief but early on in the books i strongly believed Jon and Dany were twins that were separated by Ned and Howland and the kingsguard. While I no longer believe this I do think it would have been interesting. Did anyone else think this at any point while reading or think it could have played out interestingly?

Lyanna and Elia are obviously front and center, with Ashara and Rhaella coming in close at the end, though I don’t know that Rhaella’s has anything to do with the war and Ashara’s is “just rumored” to be related to its brutality and her losses, and happened at the end as well.

Were there really only three named noble women who lost their lives as a result of a continent-wide civil war?

It seems like so many more women and even septas were taken as hostages and killed during TWOT5K and surrounding hostilities: Catelyn, Arya, Sansa; Septa Mordane; Dacey Mormont; Asha Greyjoy; probably Cley Cerwyn’s sister; Val; Meera; Beth Cassel; Jeyne Poole; Sybelle Glover and her daughter Erena (and young son Gawen), the ladies of House Hewett. To be fair this is the main story and there are numerous wars and etc. going on, I just don’t remember hearing situations where castles were taken or female fighters ended up hostages, or other noble ladies killed during the Rebellion.

Robert Baratheon inherited the Lordship the moment the Windproud sank with all hands but Patchface. We know that he “continued his fosterage” relationship in the Vale, with Jon the “second father” really taking on a powerful role for both boys given their fathers’ untimely deaths. Ned really stepped up to the challenge during the Rebellion and in its aftermath, and Robert was… a slow motion car wreck.

Becoming the King allowed Robert the ability to really disperse his responsibilities and to rely upon other people, often to the detriment of his own health and that of his kingdom and people. As King, Robert by default inherited the institutions of the Kingsguard, the Hand of the King, the Small Council. Married to Cersei, Robert’s father in law brought all kinds of wealth and the ability to go into debt. As a “mere Lord Paramount”, it doesn’t seem standard practice for the Lord to have any of that. A captain of household guards, a castellan, a steward…

Jon Arryn would not have left the Vale and ruled on behalf of Lord Robert. No other men would have been protectors of his person, he would have had to ensure that himself. Ships, laws, taxes and the like would have all been his to decide, no convenient lieutenant to assign the decision-making. And it’s unlikely another Lord Paramount or Lord would give away so much wealth or risk so much debt, even if their daughter married him.

I think inherently Robert may have made a better Lord than King. There’s a degree of pride in the man, absolutely, and one that would have been more firmly linked to Storm’s End and the Baratheon name. He absolutely would have utilized Cressen and Stannis, but he wouldn’t have been able to separate himself as much from the role of ruler in his castle, away from the city.

I don’t think Robert’s descent into who he became is Lyanna-grief, I think that’s an easy excuse for an emotional culprit to point at in lieu of holding him accountable for all of his deficits as a royal ruler. I think the institution of kingship and the support network that goes along with it was far too enabling, and that Robert was spending blank checks unchecked, if you will. None of this is the background framework to Lord of Storm’s End.

Furthermore, if Robert wasn’t king it means someone else was; (let’s assume Viserys raised by a regent just to fill the seat peacefully, but it could be anyone else, and bygones were bygones for the Targaryens). I think Lord Paramount Robert and Lord Paramount Ned would have shared another bond here, as head of their house and castle and people. Ned would have probably influenced Robert to be more involved with his own Lordship as they communicated and discussed their new daily lives and dealings.

ETA: forgot the write that be does have that trait of turning enemies into friends, which could be good but also backfire if trying to remain a dominant lord rather than an equal or battlefield ally

Some fun info to consider his maturity levels and etc:

Robert was born in 262. Steffon died in 278 or 279, making Robert 16-17 or so, having reached his majority and already been considered a grown man (Equivalent age: Jaime killing Aerys, Loras in AGOT). At that point a SSM says that Robert spent his time between Storm’s End and the Eyrie. So Robert wasn’t a child when he became the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands, merely a young Lord who had spent a lot of time away from home.

In 281 we have the tourney at Harrenhal and Robert betrothed, at ~19 years (Equivalent age: Brienne in ACOK, Waymar Royce in AGOT prologue, Theon across AGOT-ACOK) In 283 Robert is crowned King, at 21 years of age (Equivalent age: Robar Royce in ACOK, Renly in AGOT).

It appears that GRRM goes to pretty great lengths to establish that The Tickler’s face is “commonplace” and that he has no distinguishing features. Why is this?

Is it a commentary on the banality of evil? The inversion of a trope that evil people LOOK evil? Or is there something else going on here?

“She had to leave now, she told herself, but when the moment came, she was too frightened to move.

Calm as still water, a small voice whispered in her ear. Arya was so startled she almost dropped her bundle. She looked around wildly, but there was no one in the stable but her, and the horses, and the dead men.

Quiet as a shadow, she heard. Was it her own voice, or Syrio’s? She could not tell, yet somehow it calmed her fears.”

The best idea i can think of is that since she’s a greenseer edit: i meant warg, Syrio perhaps had just been killed and he could somehow communicate with her as his soul was leaving.

I might be overthinking it but the passage caught my eye and was wondering if we get to know more about this voice in the future.

Like in the books, Viserys I did apparently like/show some affection for his other 4 children, did he have any plan or idea in mind for their future after he's gone?
Like did he want to give them lands and titles to compensate for their loss in station?
Because if he had no plans whatsoever, then either Viserys I is just plainly stupid or downright cruel and malicious, or George just wanted the plot to happen so he skipped over these details.
In Westeros, it's not uncommon for Lords to secure lands and titles even for their bastard children, let alone legitimate ones, so the fact that nobody apparently ever asked Viserys I his plans for his 3 legitimate sons strikes me as a plot hole or just downright malicious intent from him towards his sons.

Jaime was allowed to stay with Cersei resulting in the bran incident, but he wouldn’t have been if he were the only kg. Who else was there?

A Feast for Crows - Cersei V

Cersei had been so happy that day. Elsewise she would never have dared visit the tent of Maggy the Frog. She had only done it to show Jeyne and Melara that the lioness fears nothing. I was going to be a queen. Why should a queen be afraid of some hideous old woman? The memory of that foretelling still made her flesh crawl a lifetime later. Jeyne ran shrieking from the tent in fear, the queen remembered, but Melara stayed and so did I. We let her taste our blood, and laughed at her stupid prophecies. None of them made the least bit of sense. She was going to be Prince Rhaegar's wife, no matter what the woman said. Her father had promised it, and Tywin Lannister's word was gold.

Her laughter died at tourney's end. There had been no final feast, no toasts to celebrate her betrothal to Prince Rhaegar. Only cold silences and chilly looks between the king and her father. Later, when Aerys and his son and all his gallant knights had departed for King's Landing, the girl had gone to her aunt in tears, not understanding. "Your father proposed the match," Lady Genna told her, "but Aerys refused to hear of it. 'You are my most able servant, Tywin,' the king said, 'but a man does not marry his heir to his servant's daughter.' Dry those tears, little one. Have you ever seen a lion weep? Your father will find another man for you, a better man than Rhaegar."

Her aunt had lied, though, and her father had failed her, just as Jaime was failing her now. Father found no better man. Instead he gave me Robert, and Maggy's curse bloomed like some poisonous flower. If she had only married Rhaegar as the gods intended, he would never have looked twice at the wolf girl. Rhaegar would be our king today and I would be his queen, the mother of his sons.

He knows she doesn’t need him to protect her and that she could solo Loras, yet he shields Brienne with his body and puts himself between Brienne and whatever is threatening her not once but twice (and also again in the bear pit)

When Cersei decides to make up a rumor about Shireen’s parentage it’s funny how she immediately jumps to incest (Ser Axel Florent) instead of, I dunno, anyone else?

I would love to see the beginnings of their relationship and what it was internally like. We know Melisandre has a tragic backstory (Melony, Lot 7 😭) and I would love to see how Stannis got going due to Jon Arryn’s death.

Cersei did Lancel because he was temu Jaime in her head and to "secure" his loyalty. Then she does the Kettlebacks to advance her own schemes. In her POVs it's very clear that especially the Kettlebacks she didn't at all enjoy, and the one scene we have with Osney is honestly disturbing to say the least, him tearing her clothing and what not. She even thinks to herself "it never felt good with anyone but Jaime" later on.

Taena she starts doing as a psycho fucked up power thing to make herself feel better about Robert raping her repeatedly. That blew up in her face in classic Cersei fashion (which I would argue is a good thing, she'd probably feel worse/like a bigger victim if it hadn't), but from that point on she enters an ongoing sexual relationship with Taena which could be argued it's also to "secure loyalty", but unlike the non Jaime men, Cersei seems to respect Taena (as much as she can respect people who aren't herself anyway) and to genuinely enjoy and seek out her company. Her sexual relationship with Taena is also one of the few (or the only one) apart from Jaime where Cersei doesn't use sex as a means to gain something she in her mind couldn't gain without the sex.

Jaime understandably felt extremely betrayed from Cersei sleeping with Lancel and the Kettlebacks.

How would he react to learning about Taena as well?

Obligatory "Lancel, the Kettlebacks and Taena Merryweather for all I know"

The grey to ash look is pretty textbook. The blood at the mouth, while extreme, is possible. His history of orthopedic trauma, immobility, alcohol use and the “healthcare” in Westeros are all major risk factors. Corlys didn’t admit guilt so much as say he has no regrets? To me that is a proud old man saying he won’t beg his innocence to a fucking Stark. Orwyle confessed but if you torture me the right way I’ll give you a detailed account of how I killed Septon Moon while I pretended to be a camp hooker.

A Feast for Crows - Cersei V

Cersei had been so happy that day. Elsewise she would never have dared visit the tent of Maggy the Frog. She had only done it to show Jeyne and Melara that the lioness fears nothing. I was going to be a queen. Why should a queen be afraid of some hideous old woman? The memory of that foretelling still made her flesh crawl a lifetime later. Jeyne ran shrieking from the tent in fear, the queen remembered, but Melara stayed and so did I. We let her taste our blood, and laughed at her stupid prophecies. None of them made the least bit of sense. She was going to be Prince Rhaegar's wife, no matter what the woman said. Her father had promised it, and Tywin Lannister's word was gold.

Her laughter died at tourney's end. There had been no final feast, no toasts to celebrate her betrothal to Prince Rhaegar. Only cold silences and chilly looks between the king and her father. Later, when Aerys and his son and all his gallant knights had departed for King's Landing, the girl had gone to her aunt in tears, not understanding. "Your father proposed the match," Lady Genna told her, "but Aerys refused to hear of it. 'You are my most able servant, Tywin,' the king said, 'but a man does not marry his heir to his servant's daughter.' Dry those tears, little one. Have you ever seen a lion weep? Your father will find another man for you, a better man than Rhaegar."

Her aunt had lied, though, and her father had failed her, just as Jaime was failing her now. Father found no better man. Instead he gave me Robert, and Maggy's curse bloomed like some poisonous flower. If she had only married Rhaegar as the gods intended, he would never have looked twice at the wolf girl. Rhaegar would be our king today and I would be his queen, the mother of his sons.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aerys_II_Targaryen

In his youth, Aerys had an undeniable charm. He was generous, resolute, and ambitious, and during the early part of his reign was an active and lively king. Aerys liked music, dancing, masked balls, and young women. However, at the same time, Aerys was not the most intelligent or the most diligent person, and was somewhat quick to anger. He was vain, proud, and changeable, which made him an easy target for lickspittles and flatterers.^\3])

A Game of Thrones - Jon IV

Finally, after three girls in as many years, Lady Tarly gave her lord husband a second son. From that day, Lord Randyll ignored Sam, devoting all his time to the younger boy, a fierce, robust child more to his liking. Samwell had known several years of sweet peace with his music and his books.

Until the dawn of his fifteenth name day, when he had been awakened to find his horse saddled and ready. Three men-at-arms had escorted him into a wood near Horn Hill, where his father was skinning a deer. "You are almost a man grown now, and my heir," Lord Randyll Tarly had told his eldest son, his long knife laying bare the carcass as he spoke. "You have given me no cause to disown you, but neither will I allow you to inherit the land and title that should be Dickon's. Heartsbane must go to a man strong enough to wield her, and you are not worthy to touch her hilt. So I have decided that you shall this day announce that you wish to take the black. You will forsake all claim to your brother's inheritance and start north before evenfall.

"If you do not, then on the morrow we shall have a hunt, and somewhere in these woods your horse will stumble, and you will be thrown from the saddle to die … or so I will tell your mother. She has a woman's heart and finds it in her to cherish even you, and I have no wish to cause her pain. Please do not imagine that it will truly be that easy, should you think to defy me. Nothing would please me more than to hunt you down like the pig you are." His arms were red to the elbow as he laid the skinning knife aside. "So. There is your choice. The Night's Watch"—he reached inside the deer, ripped out its heart, and held it in his fist, red and dripping—"or this."

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"What will I know?" Bran asked the Reeds afterward, when they came with torches burning brightly in their hand, to carry him back to a small chamber off the big cavern where the singers had made beds for them to sleep. "What do the trees remember?"

"The secrets of the old gods," said Jojen Reed. Food and fire and rest had helped restore him after the ordeals of their journey, but he seemed sadder now, sullen, with a weary, haunted look about the eyes. "Truths the First Men knew, forgotten now in Winterfell … but not in the wet wild. We live closer to the green in our bogs and crannogs, and we remember. Earth and water, soil and stone, oaks and elms and willows, they were here before us all and will still remain when we are gone."

"So will you," said Meera. That made Bran sad. What if I don't want to remain when you are gone? he almost asked, but he swallowed the words unspoken. He was almost a man grown, and he did not want Meera to think he was some weepy babe. "Maybe you could be greenseers too," he said instead.

Sometimes I wonder what goes through the minds of Rhaegar and Lyanna fans when they insist that Rhaegar would have made a great king.
First, let’s talk about Rhaegar, a married man with a daughter named Rhaenys and a son named Aegon, who decided to run away with Lyanna—or abduct her—as if insulting two of the oldest and most powerful houses in Westeros would have no consequences. Especially when House Baratheon had a history of rebellion, and the North was still bitter over Torrhen Stark and his father kneeling to House Targaryen. Add to that the fact that his father was a mad and obsessed king, and you would think the consequences would have been obvious even to an idiot.
But the victims of Rhaegar’s stupidity and selfishness were not just Houses Baratheon and Stark. His own family suffered as well. Because of him, the Targaryen dynasty, which had ruled for nearly three hundred years, came to an end, while his younger brother Viserys and his sister Daenerys were forced to endure miserable lives in exile.
And let’s not forget the greatest victims of all: his wife, Elia, whom he chose to betray, and his little daughter, Rhaenys. Whenever Rhaenys is mentioned, I wish Rhaegar had suffered what she suffered. She was hiding under her father’s bed, looking for protection, without realizing that the very man who was supposed to protect her was among the reasons her family ended up facing such a catastrophe. Then there was the infant murdered in front of his mother, who was supposedly Aegon.
Now let’s talk about Lyanna. If she willingly ran away with Rhaegar, I would rather call her a wh. in that scenario.
When she spoke to Ned, she said Robert would never be satisfied with one woman. Yet, under this interpretation, she ended up running off with a married man and becoming his mistress. So what exactly was the difference between the two men in her eyes? Does adultery become acceptable when the man is a handsome prince?
Her own family were among her victims, too. Her father and brother died in the most horrific ways because of the crisis her decision helped set in motion, while she was off with Rhaegar. Yes, Aerys was the one who chose to execute them, but that does not make Lyanna’s alleged decision consequence-free, nor does it absolve her of blame in my eyes.
And then people claim she was like Arya! No, in this context, she was more like Sansa. At least Rhaegar was willing to go to battle and defend his father, the same man who burned members of Ned’s family and ordered the execution of his other brother, Brandon. Sometimes I wonder: what if the rebellion had failed, Rhaegar had won, and Ned, Robert, and Jon Arryn had died? What would that supposedly romantic life with Rhaegar have looked like?
The rebellion ended, Rhaegar died, and Ned went to Lyanna at the Tower of Joy. In the end, his sister left him with a secret he carried for the rest of his life, and he took her son and raised him as his own bastard. He had to bear a burden he had never chosen, hide the truth, and risk his honor and reputation to protect his nephew.
Ned was one of the greatest losers of the war. He lost his father, his brother, and his sister. He lost many friends and companions, and returned home burdened with grief and secrets. He may also have lost the chance to build a life with the woman he might have loved and married, Ashara Dayne, although that possibility is never confirmed in the books.
Think about everything Ned lost: his family, his friends, his sister, and the future he might have had. Then ask yourselves: was any of this worth the choices Rhaegar and Lyanna made? And why are they portrayed as tragic lovers while the people who paid the price for their decisions are pushed into the background?

Glory to Robert’s Hammer!

Recently fans have been discussing wildly about the fates of kings landing, the reach, north etc etc. From what's everything pointing to it looks pretty horrible I mean it seems like every kingdom has or is going to suffer apocalyptic events before the long night, every kingdom except the vale.

I've never really read people saying that twow would be a dark book for the vale, its just the rest of westeros. I mean sure the vale has its problems with littlefinger and the lords declarent but nothing nearly to the level other kingdoms are going to suffer.

I know asoiaf isnt supposed to be a grimdark book where just everyone suffers and dies just for the sake of suffering but I mean twow is supposed to be a "dark" book. What do you think? Is the vale going to just maybe liberate the north and live happily after or do you expect them to face existential troubles aswell?

Did Jerry and Al do any work to get their marriage approved with the Old Gods and the Drowned God? If not, how have both religions, and therefore both kingdoms, been dealing with their incestuous kings in the meantime? I guess in general I want to ask what were both doing under late Aenys, Maegor and early Jaehaerys?

Clash of Kings - Catelyn I

Brynden Blackfish arched a bushy grey eyebrow. "More fool they. My first rule of war, Cat—never give the enemy his wish. Lord Tywin would like to fight on a field of his own choosing. He wants us to march on Harrenhal."

"Harrenhal." Every child of the Trident knew the tales told of Harrenhal, the vast fortress that King Harren the Black had raised beside the waters of Gods Eye three hundred years past, when the Seven Kingdoms had been seven kingdoms, and the riverlands were ruled by the ironmen from the islands. In his pride, Harren had desired the highest hall and tallest towers in all Westeros. Forty years it had taken, rising like a great shadow on the shore of the lake while Harren's armies plundered his neighbors for stone, lumber, gold, and workers. Thousands of captives died in his quarries, chained to his sledges, or laboring on his five colossal towers. Men froze by winter and sweltered in summer. Weirwoods that had stood three thousand years were cut down for beams and rafters. Harren had beggared the riverlands and the Iron Islands alike to ornament his dream. And when at last Harrenhal stood complete, on the very day King Harren took up residence, Aegon the Conqueror had come ashore at King's Landing.

Catelyn could remember hearing Old Nan tell the story to her own children, back at Winterfell. "And King Harren learned that thick walls and high towers are small use against dragons," the tale always ended. "For dragons fly." Harren and all his line had perished in the fires that engulfed his monstrous fortress, and every house that held Harrenhal since had come to misfortune. Strong it might be, but it was a dark place, and cursed.

A Feast for Crows - The Reaver

"They are of your body."

"So are the contents of my chamber pot. None is fit to sit the Seastone Chair, much less the Iron Throne. No, to make an heir that's worthy of him, I need a different woman. When the kraken weds the dragon, brother, let all the world beware."

"What dragon?" said Victarion, frowning.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard VII

"You had the better claim, Your Grace."

"I told you to drink, not to argue. You made me king, you could at least have the courtesy to listen when I talk, damn you. Look at me, Ned. Look at what kinging has done to me. Gods, too fat for my armor, how did it ever come to this?"

"Robert

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII

"Aerys . . ." Catelyn could taste bile at the back of her throat. The story was so hideous she suspected it had to be true. "Aerys was mad, the whole realm knew it, but if you would have me believe you slew him to avenge Brandon Stark . . ."

"I made no such claim. The Starks were nothing to me. I will say, I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act. At Robert's coronation, I was made to kneel at the royal feet beside Grand Maester Pycelle and Varys the eunuch, so that he might forgive us our crimes before he took us into his service. As for your Ned, he should have kissed the hand that slew Aerys, but he preferred to scorn the arse he found sitting on Robert's throne. I think Ned Stark loved Robert better than he ever loved his brother or his father . . . or even you, my lady. He was never unfaithful to Robert, was he?" Jaime gave a drunken laugh. "Come, Lady Stark, don't you find this all terribly amusing?"

"I find nothing about you amusing, Kingslayer."

Jaeherys only allowed the heir pair (Daenerys and Aemon) and the spare pair (Baelon and Alyssa) and their children Rhaenys, Viserys and Daemon have dragons. He didn't let his other numerous children have dragons and tried his best to not let them procreate. As Laenor was born after Baelon was made the heir why did Jaeherys allow Laena and Laenor to keep dragons? Do you think he would have let Laenor be the heir if Laenor had been older? Alternatively if Aemon didn't pass away and didn't sire any sons who would have ruled after him - Rhaenys or Laenor?