The pitbull question

[u/Ok_Ear_5266]

A few days ago, I made a post to inquire about the perspectives of those that believe in investing resources into aggressive/bite risk dogs. The post got a lot of responses and I learned some perspectives from the other side of the viewpoint. Eventually, though, the responses became focused on the tangential issue of Pitbulls. In the hopes of having a similarly engaging conversation, I wanted to make a separate post.

The specific questions that I’m interested to hear from the dog rescue community: - Why are pitbulls and pit mixes the majority type of dog that fills the shelters? - why are pitbulls and pit mixes seemingly the majority of behavioral problem dogs? - and perhaps the nucleus of the question: do the problem dogs have these issues because they are pitbulls? - should there be more stringent regulations on pitbull adoption and lower threshold for behavioral euthanasia? - is there a place in society for dogs from fighting bloodlines?

While I am not involved in dog rescue, I am involved in dog sports and I’m generally interested in canine topics. But my opinion on rescues and pitbulls is admittedly uninformed. That said, I’ll provide my thoughts:

I think the over representation of pitbulls in shelters is due to primarily social reasons and the relationship between pitbull ownership, socio economic disenfranchisement and the effect on responsible ownership. I do think that pitbulls are inherently more likely to seriously bite given their history as fighting dogs and breeding for gameness, however, I also think that there are a lot of pitbull and pit mixes that are extremely detached from their gamebred ancestors. Additionally, I think a lot of “bully” mixes nowadays really aren’t pitbulls.

I am curious to hear from more experienced people in the rescue industry who agree and disagree.

[u/gilatio]

Question 4 (Behavioral Euthanasia)

• I don't think the standards for BE should be any different for pitbulls compared to any strong, medium-large size breed.
• I do think the standard for BE should have a lower threshold than it would be for a small breed like a Chihuahua. That's because a Chi is unlikely to be able to seriously hurt a person or other pet.
• I do think that some (definitely not all) rescues adopt out dogs that should not be adopted out. Based on what I see on Reddit, I think this may happen more in the NE and Northern states were there are less strays/dogs in shelters. I have never lived there tho so I'm not sure tbh. My areas shelter is pretty high kill just for space, so it's not really a thing here to try to save the more difficult dogs. Except for a couple of the more niche smaller rescues.
• I do not think dogs showing signs of human aggression should be adopted out or generally dogs with a bite history (I do think it's ok to look at what the specific incident was,but any exceptions should be rare). I do think the large majority of shelters already avoid adopting out these type of dogs.
• I don't think any dogs with pro-active dog aggression should be adopted out. As in a dog that will try to run towards another dog for the purpose of attacking it. Especially if they will try to escape to do this.
• Dog reactivity is different than dog aggression imo and should be evaluated on a case by case basis. For example, dogs that will occasionally escalate to fighting during play or that will fight over food or toys. This is honestly very common in a lot of dogs of a lot of breeds. And not an issue if it's not severe and the owners are at least somewhat responaible imo. However, adopters should be made aware and if the dog needs a single dog home or to be fed separately this should be made clear. Also, imo adopters should be screened more carefully for dogs with dog reactivity to make sure they understand, don't have other dogs and are physically capable of controlling the dog if needed. (These requirements may make dog reactive dogs less likely to be adopted and eventually eu for space and that is ok imo. But if space is not a consideration I don't see it as a reason for BE on its own, except when severe)
• Aggression towards cats, chickens, etc is not a reason for BE imo. Many dogs of many different breeds have prey drive towards cats or small animals, will chase cats and will even kill them if given the chance. However, if aggression towards any species is known it should be made clear. Also, I don't think people with cats should be able to adopt large,adult dogs that haven't been cat tested.
• For some reason, some people on Reddit seem to think a dog just barking at fences/doors or other dogs is traumatic or a reason for BE. I don't understand this at all, it does not hurt anyone and generally does not indicate anything else about the dog. Tbh I taught my own dog to bark at the door/windows if people walk by because I live alone in a somewhat sketchy area and my neighbor is on meth. (It's working, he no longer comes to my door with weird random paranoias in the middle of the night and I feel safer that the people that walk by to go to their house late at night do not come close. & Yes, I'm trying to move, but I can't do that immediately.)

Question 5

• I don't think a dog's bloodline should have any effect on the decision. Each dog should be evaluated as an individual.

[u/Far_Sky_5240 → u/gilatio]

Well said. We have slightly different tolerances, but very common sense guidelines. 

I’m in the midwest (Ohio) and not long ago we had a huge bully mix in a nearby shelter that failed behavioral evaluations and was slated for BE. The shelter intended to put him down, but it was the rescue community that raised hell, up to the point of needing a police presence for safety. They went through multiple additional assessments with outside trainers, also failed. Eventually the outside rescue groups found someone willing to take him in and someone else willing to train him. They allowed him to be pulled.  It’s dumb, but I can’t blame the shelter staff, that were literally being doxxed and receiving threatening phone calls. 

My county’s shelter is no kill, open intake, and constantly massively overpopulated. 

A few counties north is the “high kill” municipal open intake shelter. 

I can only guess we’d find very different behavioral tolerances and BE related practices at each shelter. I don’t know how much is regional and how much literally varies from one shelter to the next. 

I do know that I’ve seen firsthand on Reddit where shelter workers discuss adopting out dogs with bite histories. My readings from those workers is what most concerns me. I suspect it happens more than you may realize. I’ve seen one where a pit bull bit a kid in the face and the worker proudly explained how they found it a new home after it was returned. 

If everyone in rescue followed your advice here we’d be a heck of a lot better off. 

[u/gilatio → u/Far_Sky_5240]

I don't understand the people who think every dog can be saved tbh, it's not realistic unfortunately. One thing my city does that I highly agree with is that they don't put dogs that are being euthanized for behavioral (or medical) reasons on the euthanasia list. They just make those decisions if they need to be made. When they put out the euthanasia list it is only for dogs that are being euthanized for space. Because those are the dogs they would like the public to help save.

I have seen a couple concerning comments on Reddit also, but they do seem to be in the minority from the replies I see though. However, some of those comments are definitely why I do think some areas must be different than mine though.

[u/Far_Sky_5240 → u/gilatio]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that in the example by me it was a shelter staffer that couldn’t accept the decision who leaked it to the public. She was fired when all was said and done, but that dog is out there. Hopefully no one gets hurt. 

My wife’s Golden rescue occasionally has to BE. There’s no announcement or fanfare. They just do it.

You want a really crazy example. Just the other day a large Great Pyr mix that had been declared vicious legally was BE’d. The adopting rescue and his owner had tried to appeal all the way to the US Supreme Court. I get the owner struggling to let go. I really do. But I don’t get why the rescue would fight it. Some of the commenters were claiming he should have lived out his life on some fantasy sanctuary. 

It’ll always be wild to me how overtly some people are willing to disregard public safety. Once a dog has actually attacked multiple people it seems like the decision should, generally, be fairly easy. 

[u/gilatio → u/Far_Sky_5240]

-It'll always be wild to me how overtly some people are willing to disregard public safety. Once a dog has actually attacked multiple people it seems like the decision should, generally, be fairly easy.-

Agreed.

[u/Emotional-Ocelot-309 → u/gilatio]

The other thing is that BE is often more humane for the dog too. The dog is basically being tortured having to be in a kennel, then passed around to different homes, then maybe living in the dog equivalent of a padded cell and straight jacket.

I used to be very pro no-kill but I have come to realize it’s a lot more nuanced and there are times when euthanasia is kindest for everyone.

[u/gilatio → u/Emotional-Ocelot-309]

I agree, I do definitely think quality of life/kennel stress is also a valid reason for euthanasia and that shelters should be evaluating for that.