r/spikes • u/raiderpower17 • 11d ago
Standard [Standard] Thoughts on Slumbering Trudge + Glamdring Combo
Current Decklist
https://moxfield.com/decks/wcqgAW4NI3Cpv2F7b-kwUQ
I have been tuning this [[Slumbering Trudge]] [[Glamdring, Foe-Hammer]] combo deck since RFA dropped and wanted to see what r/spikes thinks.
Gameplan is to get the Trudge Equipped with Glamdring to reduce the cost of instants and sorceries by 6, making a large portion of the deck free, or mana positive to cast, [[Rakshasa's Bargain]] to dig, [[sorceress's schemes]] to loop spells while floating a R, once 2 schemes are available in any combination of hand, graveyard, or exile the combo goes infinite with whatever you have access, to Bargain gives infinite digs, [[Brass's Bounty]] gives infinite mana, then tutor up a [[Thor, God of Thunder]] with a [[Nature's Rhythm]] to ping for infinite damage.
Deck is held together by a fairly elaborate tutor network.
Nature's Rhythm is the main assembly tool Grabbing trudge for 1GG, or [[Cloud, Midgar Mercenary]] for 2GG, who in turn grabs glamdring. Once the combo is assembled GG can turn into any creature in the deck, including Curse-Marred Demon for a gamble, or [[Prime Speaker Zegana]] for a draw 7, or Thor for a finisher.
Backup Tutor is [[Curse-Marred Demon]], which will grab your missing combo piece if you are still assembling, works to grab combo gas once the combo is assembled, and can turn hand and graveyard combinations into deterministic wins. Some very fun lines with grabbing [[Daydream]]. A flying Trampling 4/4 is also still just a good creature, and in a pinch can make the combo work, still making the schemes loop free, and often enough to make infinite mana off Brass's bounty. Gamble does not really feel like gamble in a deck that recures all of its spells.
Hex Magic is best played on Turn 2 with the help of an elf to dig for combo pieces, but also works great to dig for combo gas once it only costs R. Might be testing this against [[Something worth saving]]
Sorceress's Schemes is the engine that makes the deck infinite. It allows for any spell in the deck to be looped.
Interaction suite in preboard games is limited to 3 copies of the Last Agni Kai, which is dependent on having a creature out, but Trudge on 1, Agni on 2 against a 1/1, floating RRRRR and casting a curse marred-demon never feels bad, some fun loops with buying it back with a sorceress's schemes and using it 3 times.
Deck is currently a bit oversized at 63 cards, and I am convinced that the best version of this deck is over 60, have played with it between 63-69, just have not landed on that sweet spot. But the tutor density and hex magics make it play like a much shorter deck than it is.
Playing with [[Spider Manifestation]] at the moment because it generates infinite R & G once the schemes loop is established.
Post-Board games bring in Bolt Bends for any deck with Black or Blue, which typically for R work to deflect removal or fight countermagic, typically Agni Kais out there.
Creature heavy matchups the burn spells and [Nibelheim Aflame]] come in.
[[Into the flood maw]] as generic tempo/removal, pairs well with The last Agni kai too, often worth it to give the fish even if you are hitting a creature.
[[Curious Farm Animals]] As a 1 of nature's rhythm bullet for artifact or enchantment based decks
[[Dragon sniper]] As a 1 of defender against big or flying creature decks.
[[Louisoix's Sacrifice]] Might be a bit cute, but lots of lines end up with a cloud on the battlefield that you don't care bout so having a U counter spell is nice. Once combing too you have access to the whole deck so it can get through some last-ditch opposition.
Worst Matchup is definitely against black, T1 Duress or Intimidation tactics is the worst thing to see, Requiting hex can hurt, but can be played around. The whole combo only costs 4GR to deploy from hand, or 2GR if the sword is already out, so it is often worth waiting for shields to go down against control or removal heavy decks.
Deck is playing great now, and will only get better, because it does not lose a single main deck card to rotation in February.
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u/MaybeSurelySorta 11d ago
What sort of objective evidence do you have to support that this deck, or any deck not of some outlier niche, has its “best version” over 60 cards? Is the rationale here some variation of “well, I have high tutor density so therefore a statistically refined 60 card minimum doesn’t matter”?
Because I’m not the one to say it’s strictly impossible for a deck to be optimal above 60 cards. Obviously there’s historical precedent that aligns with that. But when they are, there’s a clear mathematical reason to do so supported by a large sample size of games. Going off feels for some arbitrary 63-69 card “sweet spot” doesn’t lend me to believe that’s the situation here and you are not the first (and likely not the last) person to equate an abundance of tutors or card draw/filtering to mean their 60+ card brew is correctly sized.
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u/whyhwy 11d ago
I don’t have any hard evidence but this is how I think about it. Having more than 60 cards allows you to have more “normal” WR. So your overall WR in a specific matchup may go down but it could increase it in a matchup you had no chance.
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u/MaybeSurelySorta 11d ago
60 cards as an optimal deck size is not an opinion, it’s a statistical fact mathematically supported by people much smarter than me who have been playing Magic longer than most people in this sub have been alive. This is not a mystery that needs to be solved or a theory that needs to be disproven (not saying that’s what you’re doing in your comment). The “hard evidence” to this can be found in deck building articles and primers dating back to the 90s.
Time and time again people get the idea for their brew that they can play 62 or 63 or 73, or however many cards because it anecdotally “feels right” and 9 times out of 10 the logic is because they have a lot of tutors/draws, or their deck operates out of a fear of being milled (either by themselves or from a bothersome matchup). In either case, testing and refinement will inevitably bring the deck to 60 after a large enough sample size of games.
But per my original reply, we do have precedent for higher than 60 decks being competitive, so I’m not here to get on a soapbox to proclaim it’s impossible for larger deck sizes to do well. But also per my original reply, there is literal math to support why those decks do that, and by math, I’m talking more than just diluting a deck to keep one’s silver bullet card choices in the main.
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u/whyhwy 11d ago edited 11d ago
Greater than 60 cards have been competitive in the past. Like I said more than 60 cards bump your % down but at a small margin. Imagine adding a basic forest to Mono G for example. It’s not going to make the deck unplayable or not functional but it will decrease the winrate slightly
Edit: I’m having a hard time understanding what you’re saying but I don’t think I’m disagreeing with you. I’m agreeing with you that it lowers your winrate. But what I’m saying is it allows you to have a better chance across a diverse meta game. So that WR might be lower than competitive overall but it may feel better because you have a shot in most of your games if that makes sense
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u/raiderpower17 11d ago
Increased deck size dilutes the odds of seeing my 1 of bullets that I do not want to see in opening hands. Cloud, Thor, Zegana are all nearly dead cards to see in an opening hand. I would much rather them be in the deck, for a while I was main boarding the farm animals as well. With the churn that hex magics and the demons generate deck generates you can pick the best 1-2 drops out of your first 7, then pitch it for 4-5 fresh cards or gamble for the exact piece you need.
I could be off base here and there may be a tighter 60 hiding in the list, but every time I try to cut it back it keeps pushing back up north of 60 and the play feels better. The fact that there are 5 non-negotiable 1-of bullets (Cloud, Daydream, Zegana, Damage Control, and Thor), and 6 almost mandatory 4-ofs, (Elves, Trudge, Glamdring, Schemes, Bargain, and Rhythm), 23 lands is as tight as I think the manabase can handle, that would only leaves 8 slots for the Hexes, Agni Kais, Brass's Bounty's, and Curse Marred Demons. I have not been able to find a balance there that plays right at 60. Have gone down to 1 of Brass's bounty, but it gets risky with hex magic.
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u/MaybeSurelySorta 11d ago
I mean, if your list is working out for you then more power to you. As I said previously, you are not the first person to run with the “but I can’t cut my silver bullets” logic as to why going over 60 cards is optimal or anecdotally feels right.
As for the list itself, I am well out of my depths for how something like this should play out but a lot of inclusions here just seem really odd to me for a deck built around equipping a weapon. If Glamdring is just a glorified Mindsplice Apparatus then I’d normally expect a better payoff somewhere other than NR, and if the endgame plan is Thor damage (MCU pun not intended) then surely we already have better lists to do that? The sideboard is probably what baffles me the most. Louisoix’s Sacrifice and a one of Dragon Sniper? Like, we don’t need to reinvent the wheel here for the sake of being different.
Again, if this list is working out for you then keep testing and refining. Usually when people posts brews like these I know good and well they’re not doing so to have their deck completely overhauled so I’m not going to go down that road here. I would just highly encourage you to be more critical about this “fairly elaborate tutor network” that you’re alleging ties this deck together, because I’m willing to bet 60 cards is unsurprisingly where you want this to be.
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u/raiderpower17 11d ago edited 11d ago
I make no claims to be the best brewer in the world. And there probably is a tighter 60 that works better, but from gameplay experiences, in this deck how it is setup now, the bigger deck feels better. Unfortunately playing on mobile so no specific match data, but i got it to Mythic 97% so something is working.
Edit: and sideboard is still a work in process.
Edit 2: Also I would not call the 1-of "silver bullets" in the maindeck, each one has a very specific reason for being there and are not matchup dependent but gamestate dependent. Each one certainly generates more wins than a list with them excluded would. So the cuts would have to be elsewhere.
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u/MaybeSurelySorta 11d ago
Well, when you actually have some match specific data to share I’d urge you to do so if developing this list further into something more competitive is what you’re looking to do. Because right now the preservation of your “non negotiable 1-of bullets” (if that’s what you rather call them) seems to be prioritized over how this performs against the top decks of the meta.
But I just need to emphasize one more time so it’s perfectly clear because I know people can get a little personal with this type of stuff: if your list is working for you and you’re not exactly looking to make changes but merely discuss and share your brew, then carry on.
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u/Finnthedol 10d ago
Don't listen to the haters OP this deck cooks, even if it's not a meta tier list rn, I agree that I think there's some maximally refined list hiding in there lol
If you can get some gameplay videos or more in depth content out about piloting this deck I'd love to see it. Playing it over roughly 25 ish games I've seen the potential of it begin to unlock, though these black discard decks are still being a huge pain in my ass.
This is a sweet deck, good luck in your brewing man
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u/raiderpower17 10d ago
Thanks man! And i agree its not a tier deck yet, but I think with some polish it can put up numbers. And again after rotation when decks are still trying to rebuild their core, It will already be set.
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u/Finnthedol 10d ago
One thing I'll say is that as sick as this list is, I think it's doomed to the status of rogue deck, because so many wins come from opponents not properly respecting your combo potential game one and then either not fully understanding it or not being able to deal with it 2 more games in a row. If this deck ever becomes viable and a known quantity I'm pretty sure it instantly loses a good chunk of its win rate lol, but as a funny rogue deck I really enjoy it. Thank you for your informative posts about the deck!
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u/raiderpower17 10d ago
I think i have to agree with you there. It can sneak some wins, but if you know how it works, you know that either trudge or glamdring require immediate removal. That being said, a lot of the time my philosophy is, "make them have it" . If i see an opener that has trudge, glamdring, bargain. I am slamming that shit T1, T2, and trying to go off turn 3.
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u/Finnthedol 10d ago
"make them have it" is such a great philosophy to have when playing combo decks in general, I've found (mostly speaking from playing sewerbloom in pioneer, which is really weak to the insanely efficient combo of thoughtseize and fatal push) that oftentimes you're so much more afraid looking at the back of your opponents cards than at their actual hand, and since so many situations boil down to "if they have this then I lose no matter what", it becomes a pretty decent call a lot of times to just put them on the back foot rather than giving them free room to breathe out of fear.
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u/Ezakielll 10d ago
I saw your first post on standardMTG, and since then i wanted to believe in it and tried it quite a few times goldfishing and FNM, i don't think it's quicker than kona Omni and it's waaay less resilient, G1 it dies to interaction and G2 to duress and the likes of it, and can't do much without the core already in play
"trudge/glamdering".
Regarding your list, I'm running a different one :
https://moxfield.com/decks/Ie2gAeZdjneu1QjsSgU7NA
I know you play thor for kill and because of arena, but other than that it's a dead card in hand, same for the demon i know it looks good on paper but the deck doesn't need more tutoring even for more gas i only tried with 1-2 but it's clearly not fitting well in the idea of going off t3 or t4, i went with voice for the turn i want to combo and biotech for the kill and to get that lander if mana screwed.
Hex i absolutely want 4, it's what makes the deck dig for the pieces you need, same with rakshasa.
Agni kai i was at 4 originally, the amount of mana you can get from it that enable plays was good + removal, but without a trudge online felt like a dead card so i trimmed to 2.
Flick a coin idk, i went with one as an alternative killcon but the fact that it draws a card screwed me sometimes.
Finally i added snakeskin for protection because the deck is so weak to interactions again.
Sideboard i went with something fitting my fnm meta but it's clearly not optimized, also i think that nibelheim is good as an idea but clearly it's a card you cast for style .
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u/raiderpower17 10d ago
I fell you on flick a coin, I tried to use it as a wincon once and decked myself before i was able to burn through 20 damage. I think its a trap, I have also been purposely building a rotation proof list so it was an early cut.
And i might agree, in paper biotech is probably the cleaner kill, no window for interaction once you rhythm him in along a stack of treasures. Though I've been testing out a list with spider manifestation that ramps a bit harder and Thor seems like a good include, deflects some removal to a creature that i can bring back later for the win, and 5/5 still combos with glamdring pretty well.
An going for the all in turn 3-4 combo, i agree that demon is probably not ideal, but it is more of a mid range piece. And i can not get enough of the decisions on what to gamble for. It is so thrilling to build a line with it be it by grabbing a specific piece that i don't care if it gets discarded, or going for the double daydream loop.
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u/SexyGollum69 11d ago
this had been posted on r/StandardMTG a few times. It's fun it can pop off....it's also ass
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u/MestreBifanas 10d ago
Have you considered [Sazacap's Brew] as an enabler for the Agni kai? I tried a few times and felt like a good option for decks that don't play any creatures for you to use them. Also what ranks have you played this deck in? Most meta decks have been a really rough challenge.
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u/raiderpower17 10d ago
I have not played with it but did look into it, I just don't see adding Agni kai enablers as that beneficial, Agni kai is best on T2 against any deck that runs creatures to turbo something out if i already have a trudge in hand. It might be worth a try, but i cant see where it slots. Also rotates in February which i have tried to avoid, exception to flood maw for how useful it is for 1 Mana.
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u/raiderpower17 10d ago
And last season floated between mythic 92-97%. Still climbing through Diamond 2 at the moment, but have not had as much time to play.
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u/Tuffbunny13 9d ago
Love this idea very much.
With the cost reduction ideally being 6, I just wanna throw in [[Mind into Matter]] as ramp/draw and [[Traumatic Critique]] as removal/draw. You can also sideboard into [[Colorstorm Stallion]] to make infinite copies with Sorceress loops.
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u/raiderpower17 9d ago
Both tempting, and an older build I was running critique for that reason. But the main reason I would avoid it is that the build of the deck loves turning single pipped big spells into 1 mana spells, mana neutral, or mana positive, or 6 mana twobrid into free spells. Having to still pay 2 mana, one being blue which is only a light splash in the deck is not ideal. Every slot in the deck has to strike a balance between how good is this card at assembling the combo, and how good is this card at converting the combo into a win. I don't know that either clears both bars for me.
Welcome to try it out and let me know if it works for you though!
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u/CronoDAS 11d ago
I see you're RG/u. I wonder if the new black Wish effect is something relevant? You can stick some of the silver bullets or even combo pieces into the SB instead of the maindeck.
Do either Torpor Orb or Rest in Peace make it hard to actually win?
Also, how does this compare to Kona Omniscience combo in terms of speed, resilience, etc?
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u/raiderpower17 11d ago
Torpor orb certainly hurts because it shuts down the cloud and cures marred demon lines. Farm animals comes in if i am expecting that. The combo can actually win through a RIP, because of how schemes works, if i can get Thor or a linblum wizard out, i can still loop them despite being exiled.
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u/raiderpower17 11d ago
And comparing to Kona, i would say its quicker on the top end, maybe a bit less resilient. I haven't played a kona list personally but i feel like the nuts draws need 4 specific cards by turn 3 (Elf, Kona, Omni, Dragon) + 3 lands (1 being a station land) to get a turn 3 win, where as this list only needs 3 Specific cards by turn 3 (trudge, Glamdring, Bargain) + 2 lands. That and there is a Christmas land turn 2 win possible which I dont think kona has.
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u/Arizaiaz 11d ago
Have you tried running [[Flick a Coin]]? It seems like it would fit nicely into the Schemes loop as a wincon that's not a totally dead card early on.
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u/raiderpower17 11d ago
Had flick a coin in for a few iterations, but ended up shifting towards hex magic in its slot. It was not good enough at assembling the combo, and does work as a finisher, but by the time you have the schemes loop established just about anything does. The only time it was really good was if you ended up with say cloud in hand and a starting town, so that you could hard cast him.
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u/jsilv 11d ago
Please actually explain how you win the more common matchups in Standard, because you just sort of gloss over that.