r/tolkienfans • u/artarch83 • 2d ago
Did Sauron favored humans over Orcs?
I ask this because, although Mordor appears to have been populated primarily by Orcs, Sauron’s chief lieutenants there seem to have all been human,at least in origin.
The Nazgûl,described by an Orc as the ''apple of the Great Eye'',were, of course, all humans who had been granted Rings of Power (something Sauron never bestowed upon any Orc), besides them the Lieutenant of Barad-dûr, the Mouth of Sauron, was also a human,a black númenórean, In short, all those who appear to be high in the hierarchy of Mordor, after Sauron himself, seem to be human; no Orc seems to be as favored by Sauron as any of these humans
Saruman also placed more trust in his human servants and favored them, as stated by Pippin in Chapter 9 of The Two Towers:
Saruman kept enough wisdom not to trust his Orcs. He had Men to guard his gates: some of his most faithful servants, I suppose. Anyway they were favoured and got good provisions.'
So, both Sauron and Saruman seem to have favored their human servants; in Saruman’s case, he even "improved" his Orcs by crossbreeding them with humans.
This makes sense, I think,both of them valued order, and Orcs don’t exactly fit into that, the orcs were likely viewed as nothing more than cannon fodder by both Sauron and Saruman.
Had either of them won, I think that the Orcs would have been cast aside entirely—either eliminated or so thoroughly intermixed with humans that "pure" Orcs would have ceased to exist.
So that phrase about the "time of the Orcs" in the movies doesn't hold up when you consider that, not only were Sauron’s main lieutenants in Mordor all human, but he also commanded countless human vassals, such as the Easterlings and the Haradrim, and none of them seems to have been lead by orcs while pratically all the orcs on Mordor are being lead by the Nazgul, even if they are all under Sauron being generals over soldiers is certainly very different, and i dont even remmenber of a example where Sauron put any human servant under a orc
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u/Dinadan_The_Humorist 2d ago edited 2d ago
I agree that there's cause to believe Sauron preferred Men in high-ranking positions: the Nazgûl and the Mouth of Sauron are explicitly Men, as you say, and I think it's likely that Gothmog -- the Witch-king's second in command at the Pelennor -- is as well (his having a historical name, as many of the Men of Gondor do, makes me think he is a Black Númenórean or a Corsair, not an Orc, who all seem to have guttural Orcish names). The most highly placed Orcs we see are Shagrat, Gorbag, and Grishnákh, who seem like non-commissioned officers rather than leadership.
And it's clear that Orcs are much more suited to Morgoth's omnicidal purposes than they are to Sauron's tyrannical ones. They're fractious, rebellious, and prone to exactly the kinds of "wasteful friction" that Sauron despises -- e.g., the Cirith Ungol garrison wiping itself out within minutes of finding one (1) piece of valuable loot. It seems likely he would prefer Men as minions if he can afford to be without the Orcs' manpower.
As for Saruman's line in the Jackson films, it isn't sourced from the book, and isn't reflective of Saruman's likely actual plan. That said, Saruman lies to his troops without qualm (he tells the Dunlendings that the Rohirrim burn their captives alive to keep his Dunlending soldiers from surrendering), so it would not be out of character for him to say something like that to his Orcish forces.
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u/ThoDanII Man of Dale 1d ago
more like field grade Officers in my mind but the roman centurio is a mix of NCO and CO roles
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u/1988lazarus 2d ago
You’re thinking of Khamul not Gothmog
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u/LordKulgur 1d ago
No, Khamûl is a Ringwraith. They're thinking of Gothmog.
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u/1988lazarus 1d ago
Ok
Khamul assumed command of the forces of Mordor/Morgul after the death of the witch king of Angmar.16
u/LordofBones89 1d ago
Gothmog being an orc is purely an invention of the movie. We don't actually know what he is.
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u/Xbraun 1d ago
Still pretty orcish name IMO
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u/Sorry-Exchange-5860 1d ago
No, it's the name of the Lord of Balrogs in First Age, killed by Glorfindel in the Fall of Gondolin.
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u/Xbraun 1d ago
Iknow but i could see orcs named like that too :)
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u/Dinadan_The_Humorist 1d ago
It's certainly not impossible, but it would appear to be unique. We don't get a whole lot of Orc names in the legendarium, but most of them (and in LotR, all of them) are unglossed, appearing to be in their own languages.
Gothmog is a Sindarin name, and it refers to an ancient hero (of, in this case, the evil side). This seems more of a piece with Gondorian naming traditions -- Elvish names referring to ancient heroes (Denethor having been an Elf king in the First Age, for example, and Boromir having been a chieftain of the House of Bëor).
There's certainly nothing that says Orcs can't name themselves after ancient historical figures (though it would seem more likely they'd use their own tongues than those of the Elves), but the slim evidence seems to me to point towards a Man of Gondor or Umbar over an Orc.
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u/Doot2 1d ago
Or maybe one of the Nine?
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u/BvHauteville 1h ago edited 47m ago
That's been a theory long expressed but many have argued that if Tolkein wanted to expressly name another of the Nazgul, he would have made it more explicit. Still, if not a Nazgul, there at least still exists the possibility he could have been a lesser Wraith.
The Lord of the Rings Online made him such whilst giving him quite the crazy origin, with Gothmog being one of several names by which Eärnur - the once and final King of Gondor, who disappeared in the aftermath of him accepting the Witch King's challenge of single combat to avenge the dishonor he felt from having last control of his horse the last time the two met face-to-face at the Battle of Fornost when Eärnur was Crown Prince, prior to the reign of the Stewards in the absence of a formal King - went by after being transformed into a Wraith in service of the Witch King as a means of mockery.
In any case, though, given that Gothmog explicitly commanded Sauron's mannish servants then held in reserve, I imagine him to have been of mannish origins as I imagine said mannish servants might have reacted more poorly to being ordered around by an Orc when compared to the alternative.
And if the Rohirrim at their onset were thrice outnumbered by the Haradrim alone, soon their case became worse; for new strength came now streaming to the field out of Osgiliath. There they had been mustered for the sack of the City and the rape of Gondor, waiting on the call of their Captain. He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues. Some now hastened up behind the Rohirrim, others held westward to hold off the forces of Gondor and prevent their joining with Rohan.
- The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the Ring
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u/Super_Majin_Cell 1d ago
Correct. The problem with Orcs is that they were twisted to become obedient soldiers, but they were not capable of doing much else.
Humans, however, could do everything that humans do, including civilizations, art and all that, and they were also the easiest to corrupt. This is because Sauron original intention was to convert elves to his cause, but this proved impossible so he decided to wipe out all elves and turn humans to his cause. The problem was the friendship between humans and elves. This is why Sauron sought to destroy Numeror, Gondor and Arnor, because they kept their friendship with the elves and both armies combine cannot be beaten. So Sauron wanted to destroy what lead to these realms to allie with elves, in order to completely dominate mankind. As for Orcs, they were to physically and mentally twisted for his plans.
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u/Dakh3 Varda 1d ago
Convert to his cause, but what is it precisely ?
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u/ThoDanII Man of Dale 1d ago
His ordered tyranny of Arda
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u/Dakh3 Varda 1d ago
Well at best Arda minus Aman anyway.
But rule at what maximum cost acceptable for him? If he made every Elf, Human, Dwarf, Orc, and Troll kill each other until absolutely all are dead, would he consider he succeeded? If he ruled over every human while all other races were dead, would he consider it success?
I really wonder what's the most precise goal Tolkien ever specified for Sauron, I don't remember the books enough
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u/Super_Majin_Cell 4h ago
Sauron didn't care for elves and dwarves and their destruction. Sauron only sought to dominate men after he failed with the other two. He even adopted the title King of Men during the second world. So their destruction would be a sucess in his eyes, but not of men.
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u/Super_Majin_Cell 4h ago
Make them his servants. Sauron sought to dominate all life to create a world of industry. Humans could help him with that, but Orcs not that much as they mostly created weapons but not other types of things.
Sauron was a Maiar of Aule before turning evil, so he still had the desire to transform and create. But instead of creating in conjunction with nature, he sought to destroy nature to feed his industry. Humans had the same tendency too unless teached by elves (this is why Sauron wanted to destroy the elf-friends).
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u/Haldir_13 2d ago
I think he despised orcs and ultimately, had he won out over the powers of the West, would have gradually betrayed and eliminated them in pursuit of his goal of order across Middle Earth.
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u/ranmaredditfan32 1d ago
To be fair Sauron despised everyone. Orcs aren’t special in that regard.
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u/BvHauteville 39m ago
>To be fair Sauron despised everyone.
Except me, of course.
He even gave me a friendship ring back in the day as a show of affection.
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u/maksimkak 1d ago
You are 100% correct.
Funnily enough, in early drafts for LotR, Sauron did give out the Rings to Orcs. "The goblins got many, and the invisible goblins are very evil and wholly under the Lord."
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u/Lothronion Istyar Ardanyárëo 1d ago
A bit irrelevant to this post, I just want to say I really appreciate your work in that document. I went through it recently, and it really helps to see all the info together.
It even made me conjure a theory that Imladris existed since the time Eregion was founded, for JRRT did not reject that statement in earlier notes, he just left it out in his haste to compile the Appendices. It might even be confirmed by a passage from the NoMe essay "The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor", dating from the late 1960s, where JRRT writes "There, especially near the Hithaeglir (on either side), they [the Noldor and Sindar] found scattered settlements of the Nandor, Telerin Elves who had in the First Age never completed the journey to the shores of the Sea; but both sides recognized their kinship as Eldar.".
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u/Prize-Finish4464 1d ago
I have no doubts he probably favoured men than orcs though one must remember Sauron was even more skilled at corrupting men than even Morgoth and reduced men to orc like behaviour
The History of Middle-earth, Volume XII,” Appendix C to “Quendi and Eldar.” “And he proved even more skilful than his Master also in the corruption of Men who were beyond the reach of the Wise, and in reducing them to a vassalage, in which they would march with the Orcs, and vie with them in cruelty and destruction.”
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u/Trini1113 2d ago
Humans appear to have more free will than orcs. They appear to be smarter than orcs. But they have less stamina.
That makes them both more useful and less useful. Orcs will always complain, always be rebellious. But are also probably less prone to rebellion.
Do orcs die of natural causes?
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u/artarch83 2d ago
I’m not sure if Orcs have more stamina than humans in Tolkien’s work; do you know of any source regarding this?
After all, Saruman’s Uruk-hai seem to have been considered physically superior to ordinary Orcs in general due to their human blood.
And as far as I know, the lifespan of Orcs and their resistance to things like disease and famine was not described by Tolkien.
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u/Trini1113 2d ago
Orcs can run for days. Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli could track them, but Aragorn is no ordinary human.
The Uruk-hai are larger and stronger (and probably more intelligent), but weight and power scale negatively with stamina. Long distance runners and body builders have very different body types.
My question about lifespan has to do with the idea that they were "made" from elves. I know the origins of the orcs were subject to a lot of revision, but if they are twisted elves, they would presumably not have the gift of men. And if they were created separately by Melkor, why would he have given them the gift of mortality?
Sauron wouldn't care enough about his underlings to even consider it, but I wonder: was there somewhere among his armies, an orc who remembered the light of the Two Trees?
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u/NonspecificGravity 2d ago
How would an Orc have seen the light of the Two Trees?
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u/InterestingHyena7041 1d ago
If they were twisted from a elf who had seen the light of the two trees?
I believe that was the thought at least, assuming enough torture to change you from a elf to a orc doesnt entirely ruin your mind.
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u/OwariHeron 1d ago
As far as the "corrupted Elf" origin goes, the Elves abducted and so corrupted were taken before the Eldar were brought to Valinor, indeed before Utumno was broken.
The Silmarillion talks about Noldor and Sindar captured by Morgoth during the Siege of Angband. They came back broken of spirit, and sometimes as spies, but they were not turned into Orcs.
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u/BorzoiAppreciator 1d ago
Orcs are more prone to disorganization and anarchy in a vacuum but also more easily subject to domination by a superior evil will, courtesy of them being a product of Morgoth. Humans are harder to subjugate --see the need for the nine Rings, the time it took for Sauron to subjugate his Mannish allies, the continued resistance in the far East and South-- but were better fighters and probably had more stamina. If the hobbits can blend in with the Orc rabble in Mordor, they must have a pretty huge size disadvantage too. Orcs' weakness to the Sun no doubt made them less useful as soldiers as well.
I don't think there's evidence to suggest that they had better stamina than Men. The Orcs that ran from the Fellowship with Merry and Pippin were driven by Saruman's will and the leadership of the devoted Uruk-Hai, it's clear they weren't used to moving at such a pace regularly. I think they were equal in intelligence to Men (they seem capable miners and smiths, even superior to primitive Men like Dunlendings, who were related to the Edain!). Their nature just drove them to a lower level of social cohesion.
Remember, evil cannot create, only corrupt. So it stands to reason that Orcs, made in mockery of Elves and Men, would be on average less powerful than their original forms.
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u/OleksandrKyivskyi Sauron 1d ago
They were probably means to an end and didn't fit into his picture of world in order.
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u/Vonatar-74 1d ago
Orcs are the blunt instrument of bringing about Sauron’s world order. But that’s about it.
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u/Kodama_Keeper 1d ago
I'd have to say No. Whatever origin story about Orcs you believe, made from body parts or tortured Elves, or lesser Ainur inhabiting the dead, Sauron had to realize that these beings were lesser than what Eru made.
Consider Sauron and the Elves. Sauron's original plot in creating the Rings of Power was to control the Elves, because he knew they had the greater talent, greater than his own. Yes, he was integral in the creation of the Rings of Power, but...
On Pippin's midnight ride with Gandalf, Pippin is under the impression that the Palantir was a creation of the Enemy, Sauron. Gandalf corrects him, saying no, it was beyond Sauron's skill, and Saruman's also. They were created by the Noldor in very ancient times, possibly by Feanor himself*.
This is in line with what we read in The Silmarilion, about the Noldor in Valinor, how they first learned from the Valar, like Aule, and then surpassed them. The Elves had the greater talent and Sauron knew it. He wanted them as his willing slaves.
So, Men couldn't do what the Elves could do. It's possible they couldn't work with the spirit world as well as Orcs could. Remember, Gandalf said he used to know spells by Orcs, but he didn't say he knew the spells of Men.
But Men would have other gifts, other "real world" talents, not bound to Arda. I have to suppose Sauron wanted that as well.
*I always found it odd that Gandalf didn't know for sure. I mean, even in Valinor at its height, the creation of something like that Palantir couldn't have gone so unnoticed that everyone wouldn't have heard about it.
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u/Snapdaisy-Chains 1d ago
Sauron might suggest that he has a grudge against neither elves nor humans as a whole. Elves have long been at war with him, but many humans are wise enough to follow him. Both make excellent slaves!
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u/InTheChairAgain 1d ago
Sauron would have feared Men and Dwarves alot more than his Orcs, since he could not completely control free Men. I think that more than anything decided who he would hand out Rings to.
The Orcs he knew he could control with fear and power, and also that since most Elves, Dwarves and Men hated the Orcs, they had nowhere else to go.
Saruman Orcs Sauron could probably have coerced if his side had won. The Half-orcs on the other hand would have been shunned by both Men and Orcs, and might have stayed loyal to Saruman.
The main advantage for Sauron to use Men however I think was because there's just a lot more Men in the world than there are Orcs.
Just like how Men would displace the fading Elves, and dwindling Dwarves, they would also, left to their own, have completely overwhelmed the Orcs.
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u/Doot2 2d ago edited 2d ago
He definitely favored men over orcs given the stature Men like the Lt. of Barad-dur or the Nazgul themselves held in his realm. In fact, I seem to remember maybe? one of Tolkien's letters describing how, during the Second Age, while Sauron wore the guise Annatar with which he would deceive the elves of Eregion, the wild orcs of middle-earth who were leaderless after the fall of Thangorodrim mocked and refused to follow Sauron. Even the orcs of the Third Age barely hide their dislike for their Lord and seldom make use of his 'black speech' among each other, preferring to use their own tongue. The orcs of Cirith Ungol openly complain about their 'bosses' and dream of escaping the tyranny of the Dark Tower and setting up their own little bandit camp or some such.