r/toronto • u/Cool_Source7003 • 1d ago
Discussion Pedestrianize King Street!
The King Street Priority Corridor has been an unmistakable success, when officers are on duty travel time between Bathurst and Jarvis drops from 45 minutes to 15, that's faster than cars ever were. In fact, the fact that an individual cars spend so little time on King and can't park means that fully blocking car traffic on the corridor will not meaningfully increase congestion from what it is now. To ease cars traffic, we can remove that useless section of streetcar track along Wellington, allowing cars an alternative to Richmond. Pedestrianizing King between Bathurst and Jarvis is simply better for everybody.
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u/NonDescript2222 1d ago
This could work, it’s hard enough to drive that spot anyways
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u/Cool_Source7003 1d ago
Yeah exactly, I love pedestrianized streets and think they are better for everyone, but I acknowledge that making drivers super angry is not beneficial at all. It sucks but it's the hand we're dealt. King is already so difficult to drive on I really doubt a meaningful number of drivers would care, especially if they get streetcar off Wellington
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u/vulpinefever Bayview Village 1d ago
The reason they didn't fully pedestrianize is because there are garage accesses and loading docks only accessible by King Street. More aggressive local traffic restrictions would be great though like physically forcing cars to turn off King, red light cameras to catch cars illegally continuing straight, etc.
To ease cars traffic, we can remove that useless section of streetcar track along Wellington
You mean the useless section used in emergencies for diversions, short turns, and the 503 Kingston Road's regular routing?
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u/lady_jane_ 13h ago
The 503 has been a bus for what seems like 2 years now and I’ve read they have plans to keep it a bus permanently.
I agree with everything else you said.
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u/vulpinefever Bayview Village 11h ago
I work as a streetcar op, the 503 is coming back eventually but internally there's some debate as to whether it'll be an all day service or if they'll return to the rush hour service + Coxwell bus down Kingston Road during other periods.
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u/Flynn58 York Mills 5h ago
Won't the new Line 3 duplicate a lot of the route?
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u/vulpinefever Bayview Village 4h ago
Only the core portion and only partially because it mostly runs under Queen Street. In the east end, the 503 will continue to be the main route along Queen and Kingston Road.
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u/Flynn58 York Mills 4h ago
Maybe the 503 should be shortened then with a transfer to the western end of Line 3 and more of the trams can run on a smaller section of track?
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u/vulpinefever Bayview Village 4h ago
The whole point of the 503 is to provide a transfer free ride to people living in the east end who work in the financial district. What you're suggesting would add a 10 minute walk and a transfer to the commute of someone living along Kingston Road who works at King/Bay, for example.
There's already a transfer between the 503 and Ontario Line at the planned Corktown Station, nowhere to turn streetcars around though.
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u/StarFox122 1d ago
This is easily solvable though - just don’t pedestrianize the blocks that have driveway access.
They can still be nice transit and pedestrian-first areas. And there’ll be less vehicular traffic on those blocks anyways because it won’t be a through-street anymore. And eventually if the buildings are redeveloped to remove garage or parking access then it can be fully pedestrianized, but in the meantime it’ll still be a great improvement for all.
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u/JagmeetSingh2 UNVERIFIED 9h ago
pedestrianize during the day, deliveries at night and early morning
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u/Cool_Source7003 1d ago edited 1d ago
These are legitimate concerns, but they have legitimate answers as well. I'm sure a transit engineer could do better but:
garage accesses and loading docks only accessible by King Street.
The existing system already has exception for loading vehicles and spots for them to unload. What if garbage trucks and supply trucks came early in the morning and the space was car-free from 8am-8pm (12pm on weekends)
used in emergencies for diversions, short turns, and the 503 Kingston Road
For diversions, there is already track all around the city that isn't part of normal streetcar operations, so what if Wellington has no streetcars except for emergency turn-arounds?, that would still increase car viability on Wellington by a ton. And why does the 503 need to go on Wellington as part of its normal route? Wellington is like a 2 minute walk from King. Why not route it along King and turn around at Exhibition or Dufferin Gate or whatever?
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u/bergamote_soleil 1d ago
I believe King has both condo parking garages and public parking garages, which people would need to access throughout the day.
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u/Cool_Source7003 1d ago
I just walked along the corridor using Google Maps and I found 2 parking lots on King that have no other entrances: Impark lots 504 and 505, these two lots sum to 250 parking spaces and are both really close to Bathurst. Crucially, both also have dead end alleys behind them which could probably be turned into an entrance.
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u/patienceinbee Metrolinx Coyote Line 21h ago
Parking garages in the core may be, incidentally, prime potential spots for long-term future re-development.
In the case of Impark 505 (621 King St. W.), owing to its location as part of a recent-build condo development, that space can be re-developed as an underground shopping centre.
In the case of Impark 504 (650 King St. W.), there is a Bathurst service corridor and a corridor to Browns Lane which would have the lot continue as a publicly accessible parking lot.
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u/vulpinefever Bayview Village 1d ago
Why not route it along King and turn around at Exhibition or Dufferin Gate or whatever?
Because Exhibition is already used by two streetcar lines as the terminal and Dufferin Gate is already used by 504B cars as a terminal. They would block each other. That's also before you consider that King is already pretty packed with streetcars during the rush hour.
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u/divine_goddess_K 1d ago
Im a resident on King St at John. Why should my access to ubers be restricted? Why do you think garbage trucks should wake us up at night?
Pedestrianizing is a great concept. But to do it on King St would be to the detriment of those of us living here. Traffic is already insane on Blue Jays during rush hour. I recorded a fire truck taking 4 mins to go down one block the other day.
Seriously. Do you not think about the impacts of your suggestions?
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u/Silent-Movie-1047 14h ago
The goddess have spoken. OP seems to want everyone to adjust just a little bit for them to be able to have a nice walk because “it is simply better for everybody”. Lol
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u/OrganizationOld3120 1d ago
Do you not think about the impacts of your suggestions?
You've described this entire website
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u/GreatGreenGobbo 23h ago
No they live in the CoOps below Esplanade or Bathurst and Front.
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u/divine_goddess_K 6h ago
Probably. Some of us pay market rates and mortgages to live where we do lol
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u/MistahFinch 8h ago
Im a resident on King St at John. Why should my access to ubers be restricted?
It's not? You could walk 150m to Adelaide or 30m to Mercer
If you think Ubers have to go directly to your door you're being disingenuous in your second paragraph we can't have both doorway Uber access everywhere and pedestrianisation.
Why do you think garbage trucks should wake us up at night?
They already run at night in the city. What?
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u/divine_goddess_K 6h ago
I have a courtyard for uber pick ups. And no, when I tore a muscle in my leg I wasn't able to walk very far unassisted.
There is some garbage pick up at night but not for residential buildings.
If you don't live in the area you really shouldn't get a say.
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u/Little_Election_4302 1d ago
I think the TTC was concerned about too many routes serving king because the lack of transit priority+ far side stops means streetcars end up stuck at a light while another streetcar is in the stop at the far side (only holds one). This is of course a symptom that highlights the need for proper transit phasing on King Street intersections
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u/citypainter 1d ago
It's already a transit priority corridor. And it has worked really well, despite various challenges, and travel times on the 504 across the core are much better than they were before, when gridlock made transit there almost impossible at many times.
But it's not completely pedestrianized because of all the building garages that enter and exit off the street. This makes it difficult to physically prevent cars form illegally driving on it when they should not, because we can't physically block entry with bollards or equivalent barriers. So we're left to rely on the police to enforce drivers obeying signage, and... well, we know how that ends.
Car shares and taxis also negotiated access to the road at certain times, muddying the waters further. The lowest bar would be to eliminate those exceptions, but I doubt this will happen in the current political environment.
Finally, and most disappointingly, is that after the trial we were promised a lot of streetscape improvements, like much wider sidewalks,, permanent level transit boarding platforms, permanent patio areas, trees, plantings, artworks, etc. to make the street pleasant for people.
Instead the rudimentary concrete blocks dragged there during the trial a decade ago have mostly been left to rot, be graffitied, and catch trash. They blamed the pandemic for delays in implementing the improvements, but the pandemic lockdowns ending 6 years ago, and now the city just seems to be hoping we forget about it.
There are a few places where basic effort is usually made in the summers (like in front of St. James Park) but in general the corridor has been left in a half-finished and unpleasant state that leaves nobody really happy, divers, walkers, or transit riders.
So far, it's another one of Toronto's big missed opportunities to do something, anything more than the bare minimum. And as we watch even our bare minimums being torn out, it's tough to be an optimist in these parts.
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u/Open_Seeker 13h ago
I dont see why they cant post those rent-a-cops or parking enforcement-level people to just 'run' King Street in this way. What's the issue? They just dont do a good job?
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u/Cool_Source7003 1d ago
But it's not completely pedestrianized because of all the building garages that enter and exit off the street. This makes it difficult to physically prevent cars form illegally driving on it when they should not, because we can't physically block entry with bollards or equivalent barriers. So we're left to rely on the police to enforce drivers obeying signage, and... well, we know how that ends.
Another commenter already mentioned this. And I didn't find a City source, but Wikipedia says that most of the violators are out-of-towners, presumably they didn't know the rules and honestly, they are super complicated (No through traffic except Bay and John, except taxis, except between 5am and 10pm, and no left turns, except Bathurst and Jarvis, oh and also Simcoe and York get their own rules. Like what?). I think a big sign that says "no turn onto King" and some red paint could definitely get the message across and reduce confusion, especially if the streets are swarming with pedestrians - no one's going to turn into a street filled with people, at worst they might honk a little and seethe a little..
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u/citypainter 1d ago
Maybe it is confusing, sure, but drivers don't need to memorize the rules for the whole street, just obey the signs in front of them.
A few years ago they put in bigger and more conspicuous signs.
Westbound at Jarvis they now have electronic backlit signs with an arrow pointing up and big red slash through it, which everyone who has passed their driving test should know means "do not go straight". But on any given day at any given time you can stand on that corner, sip your coffee, and watch a half dozen drivers ignore it. Whatever the issues are here, signs alone are not going to solve it.
I also wish I was as confident as you are that "no one's going to turn into a street filled with people".
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u/ZealousSloth_1211 2h ago
There are traffic directors at King and Jarvis now at busy times of day forcing cars to respect the signs. Observation suggests the signs don’t catch people’s attention if they don’t know to look for special signage. They always look confused when the traffic cops are telling them to turn right.
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u/exploringspace_ 1d ago
I mean it’s already kind of pedestrian as it is, but really there’s barely any meaningful retail anywhere on king. Just a short strip of bars/clubs that gets busy with drunk 20 year olds from Barrie on weekends. They don’t really care. Pedestrianize queen or Ossington instead.
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u/Cool_Source7003 1d ago
I mean yeah, but let's not let perfect be the enemy of good here. King has two huge benefits over those two options 1. The hard work is already done. The transit corridor is like 70% of the way there 2. King is a huge transport street. Wikipedia says that with enforcement officers, travel between Bathurst and Jarvis drops from 45 minutes to 15, pedestrianizing the street would drop that even more. It would essentially be 3km of subway and pedestrianized street for the cost of some signs and plant pots Also, King west of University has a ton of people living on it, as well as restaurants and things like Roy Thompson Hall and TIFF.
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u/ResidentNo11 Trinity-Bellwoods 1d ago
Running streetcars down a pedestrianized road would slow the streetcars. And what's the draw for pedestrians? It would end up a dead street.
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u/SuperWeenieHutJr_ 21h ago
People get out of the way.
Pedestrian streets with streetcars are common all over Europe. They are really nice and work very well.
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u/ResidentNo11 Trinity-Bellwoods 14h ago
The streetcars on those move slower than the ones on King do now. At least in the cities I've been in there.
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u/exploringspace_ 13h ago
They should simply level out the road/sidewalk on king west and allow for jaywalking.
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u/blenderider 1d ago
I agree with you in spirit, but like u/exploringspace_ said, the current retail doesn't justify pedestrianization. A street market could be inspired though
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u/EYdf_Thomas East York 1d ago
I don't think the TTC wants to have people being able to walk anywhere around the streetcars they already have them going slower on both the queen's Quay right of way and the one on Cherry Street because of it being close to the sidewalk.
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u/SuperWeenieHutJr_ 21h ago
Well the TTC needs to grow a pair, because it works extremely well in Europe. They they run their streetcars fast as heck.
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u/EYdf_Thomas East York 21h ago
We aren't in Europe and unfortunately the people here are stupid and don't act like they do in Europe. No matter how much we want the TTC and Toronto to be like Europe the lawyers who work for both the city and the TTC won't let it happen.
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u/quarrystone Parkdale 9h ago
This is poor justification. Every time we say “we’re not LIKE other places” it’s an attempt to halt discussion and make no meaningful change. We’re not so precious and special that we can’t take the good ideas of other places and implement them in a way that works best for us.
You can’t change peoples’ expectations without easing them into it, and that takes time. If we’re not willing to start that, nothing will ever happen.
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u/Redditisavirusiknow 1d ago edited 1d ago
100%. This would be beautiful. Keep the streetcar of course. Contact your new councillor with this idea and I’ll do the same. We need a lot of sustained pressure but it can work
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u/JuneAfternoon10 1d ago
This is a horrible idea. And for context I am not a driver, I am active at the bike lane protests, and I am all for pedestrian forwards streets. But this stretch of King is highly essential for east Enders to get to west end, to the subway etc.
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u/SuperWeenieHutJr_ 21h ago
OP doesn't mean remove the streetcar. They mean a pedestrian street with streetcar.
I understand why your confused thou, it's not very clear.
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u/oclscdotorg 1d ago
Any east-enders using that stretch of King for through traffic to the west end are scofflaws, even if the rules aren't properly enforced a lot of the time. Sorry.
Besides which, what's wrong with Richmond and Adelaide, both of which are more or less designed to handle through traffic (even at the cost of becoming pedestrian-hostile in spots)?
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u/JuneAfternoon10 1d ago
I’m talking about the streetcar, not driving.
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u/smudgy_panda 1d ago
I don't think OP means to remove the streetcar. It would just be streetcar + pedestrians, no cars. So it would be a lot better for peds and transit riders, and the 504 is the highest riderership surface route in the city
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u/Skatingunicorn 9h ago
This was already done in like 2013-2015 during road construction and it was a disaster, a ton of businesses complained and people too. Streetcar service sucks and one could not even get a taxi there.
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u/masiha97 22h ago
The trial succeeding and then quietly dying is the most Toronto thing imaginable. Nobody disputes that the corridor worked, and a decade later the 'temporary' concrete blocks are still the permanent streetscape. Hard to get excited about a bigger vision when the planters never arrived.
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u/ASCII_zero 12h ago
Let your councillor know. Back in June, City Council directed staff to develop a citywide Pedestrian Streets Program.
Let's see if Ford tries to ban pedestrian streets next, like he did with bike lanes.
https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2026.MM42.39
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u/Fit_Salamander_2814 10h ago
Why not just pedestrianize all of the city south of Bloor, between High Park and DVP? There's no reason any vehicle ever needs to be in that part of the city, not when bikeshare is everywhere and the subway is ubiquitous.
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u/Spirited-Potato-2791 5h ago
Pure fantasy, but the 2 planned Ontario Line King stations almost line up perfectly with the beginning and end of the Priority Corridor. Imagine 504 dipped underground to have seamless transfers at King W & Bathurst (King West Station), then once again at King E & Berkeley (Distillery Station). Sprinkle in a little transit signal priority at major intersections, some nicer stops and streetscape and boom, you essentially have a rapid "LRT" on one of the busiest corridors in the city, smack in prime downtown anchored with underground subway stations at both ends.
Intersections at both ends of the Priority Corridor are huge friction points for obvious reason, King W & Bathurst even more, as 511 street car crosses here too! Metrolinx themselves estimate 2,000+ peak transfers/hour per station to the 504. Saving all those people from coming up to the surface, boarding, standing in the cold would be a complete game changer.
That being said, as OP mentioned 15 minutes end to end when officers are enforcing, is encouraging, but average of 10.4 km/h for a 2.6km stretch in a best case scenario is still slow. Someone please check my math! My fantasy scenario, could reduce 2-5 minutes on each end, even if nothing else changes. I can only dream.
Back to real life, a full pedestrianization at this point, considering the parking garages, no existing streets where people already walk on tracks, and the unknown effects it will have on the neighbouring streets, is likely not the right move. What can be immediately worked on is: transit signal priority at major intersections, increase stop spacing and more enforcement.
Do you guys, think the opening of Ontario Line, will make things better or worse on this corridor?
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u/someguyfrommars 1d ago
Also, expand the priority corridor program to Queen, Dundas and College
The fact is the city pulled off a super successful program in this streer and then... Stopped? Why? Let's keep going!
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u/averysleepygirl Riverdale 1d ago
i want King from Bathurst to Church to be transit/bikes only soooo bad. and actually, many stretches of King are almost free of cars for the most part with the no-straights/no-turns etc signage BUT NO ONE PAYS ATTENTION TO THEM
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u/miroselym 1d ago
So sad to see the patios get removed all over the city. Except for a couple of months out of the year it's a great option, even in Winter when a large heater will do!
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u/oclscdotorg 1d ago
I'd love to see CafeTO start earlier and last later, though I think there's a conflict with snow-clearing that might make it hard to maintain through the winter.
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u/hipsteradication 1d ago
I think Queen needs it more, but I do think King and Queen both need to be pedestrianised with Richmond and Adelaide being dedicated as a car arterial couplet.
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u/rootbrian_ Rockcliffe-Smythe 19h ago
King from end to end (queen to queen!) needs to be made transit-priority. This way, it is unimpeded by those who drive and police need to keep their shit together to enforce this at all times.
At least vulnerable road users don't cause congestion at all. Anyone on a bike can easily make way (as do I) if a tram is approaching from behind (if taking the lane), which is pretty easily done.
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u/Forsaken-Bowler-1307 19h ago
Half of the time I barely see any cars there aside from taxis. As much as I’d love to see it being a fully pedestrian street, you can’t just get rid of one of the busiest streetcar corridors.
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u/ManyNicePlates 10h ago
You know if we had subways replace street trains or residents the roads with the trains closest to the sidewalks and eliminated parking we would be fine. Have stopping areas in the centre at the wider points for cars saw this work well in Croatia
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u/MyWallWillNotTalk 1d ago
Might as well. Traffic is a complete gridlock anyways. Shutting down one more road to make the city more liveable is a great idea and won't make traffic any worse than it is already.
At least us drivers who are stuck in traffic can get out of our cars, grab a burger on King Street and return to our cars an hour later and on time to move our cars five feet forward.
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u/Absenteeist 1d ago
Increasingly difficult to distinguish real conservatives from trolling caricatures of conservatives.
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1d ago
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u/Competitive-Tea-6141 1d ago
OPs proposal is streetcars only, never cars, and the sidewalks expanded right to the streetcar tracks to have more pedestrian spaces
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u/oclscdotorg 1d ago
Strictly speaking that would be hazardous for cycling traffic. Better to maintain bike lanes outside the streetcar tracks.
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u/Hennahane 1d ago
The post is about pedestrianizing with the streetcar still in place as an extension of the transit priority pilot, and businesses could get deliveries on off-peak hours (which is how pedestrian streets around the world do it)
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u/Serenesis__ 1d ago
Not if Ford had anything to say about it!