r/ultimate • u/AutoModerator • 6d ago
Study Sunday: Rules Questions
Use this thread for any rules questions you might have. Please denote which ruleset your question is about (USAU, WFDF, UFA, WUL, PUL).
This thread is posted every Sunday afternoon.
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u/BigSprocket 6d ago
Played a hat tournament in Joplin, MO yesterday. On one of the pulls in the championship game, after both sides signaled a pull was happening, our puller fumbled the disc while starting to throw and it dropped behind the goal line. Receiving team assumed it was just a lousy pull, and their disc on our goal line. I thought the same, but an experienced player on our team confidently asserted that since it dropped behind the goal line, it was no pull and we should pull again. That’s what we did, but I have never heard of such a thing and feel like that was the wrong call. What’s the right call?
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u/macdaddee 5d ago edited 5d ago
As u/FieldUpbeat2174 said, a pull has to be a throw and an "accidentally dropped" disc is not a throw. Now the question is this an accidentally dropped disc or an accidentally released disc.
3.N.3. An accidentally released, spinning flying disc is a throw, not a dropped disc.
Whether it was in front of or behind the goal line is immaterial. The only thing I'm concerned about is that you said it happened when they started their throwing motion. And the other team thought it was a pull. So what determines whether it was a pull or not is did their throwing motion cause the disc to spin, or did they just fumble a non-spinning during their run up? So I don't know which outcome is correct, but the pulling team's argument is wrong.
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u/FieldUpbeat2174 6d ago edited 6d ago
My understanding, USAU pull rule is it’s only a pull if you intend the release to be that. “3.J. Pull: The throw from one team to the other that starts play at the beginning of a half or after a goal. …” and “3.N.2. An intentionally dropped disc is considered a thrown disc. An accidentally dropped (falling, non-spinning) disc is not a throw.”
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u/mgdmitch Observer 5d ago edited 5d ago
You are missing the next rule in 3.N:
3.N.2. An intentionally dropped disc is considered a thrown disc. An accidentally dropped (falling, non-spinning) disc is not a throw.
3.N.3. An accidentally released, spinning flying disc is a throw, not a dropped disc.
If you are walking a disc to the brick and you lose your grip of the disc for some reason and recatch it, you are recatching an unintentionally dropped disc, ie, it isn't a throw, so no turn.
But, if you are in a throwing motion and the disc slips out of your hand at the wrong time and it turns into a terrible, fluttering throw, you have thrown the disc (3.N.3).
So for the original question, it would depend on what "started to throw" means. Walking back to begin a run up? Flipping the disc around as a personal ritual before you pull? Winding up? Not a pull. Starting your forward throwing motion toward the other team to pull the disc? That's the pull.
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u/FieldUpbeat2174 5d ago edited 5d ago
No disagreement, but I inferred, from the fact that the disc fell behind the line, that the fumble was prior to the throwing motion, on windup. “3.N.4. The act of throwing is the motion that transfers momentum from the thrower to the disc in the direction of flight and results in a throw. Pivots and wind-ups are not part of the act of throwing.” Wind up can impart spin; that doesn’t mean the forward throwing motion has begun. With a typical competitive puller’s form, including run or big steps up to near the line, it seems unlikely that a release during the forward throwing motion wouldn’t get the disc over the line.
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u/mgdmitch Observer 5d ago
That's a whole lot of assumptions there. I've had a puller have the disc slip out of their hand right as they started moving their arm forward. The disc went slightly forward and very sideways, landing behind the line. Absolutely a throw. Sadly, the receiving team called it and asked for a ruling, despite being up something like 10-2.
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u/BigSprocket 5d ago
Thanks. This makes sense to me. To be clear, the puller was definitely in the motion of making the pull. He was not tossing to a teammate or tying his shoe or anything else. He was pulling, and no one would dispute that.
Somehow he flubbed the throw and it fell down right at his feet. It is highly unlikely that it had zero spin when it fell, so it seems like it should have counted as a lousy pull and receiving team’s disc at our goal line.
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u/BigSprocket 6d ago
But you can’t drop a caught disc in play. That’s a throw—a bad one, but still a throw. Sorry, I’m not following the logic here.
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u/FieldUpbeat2174 6d ago
An unintentionally dropped disc isn’t a throw. That’s why as a mid-point thrower you can fumble a disc, lose contact with it, and re-control it before it hits the ground, then carry on without invoking the rule that directly catching your own throw causes a turnover. If the unintentionally dropped disc contacts the ground before being re-controlled, it’s a turnover because 14.B says so, not because it’s a throw.
Per the definition of Pull, if it’s not a throw, it’s not a pull.
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u/BigSprocket 6d ago
Ok, that’s interesting. I’ve also had the situation where a player caught the disc fully, fumbled it around as he tried to throw, regained control before it hit the ground, and it was called an illegal throw to himself and a turnover.
But in the case of our puller, the disc did hit the ground. Is that not a turnover? 🤷🏻♂️2
u/macdaddee 5d ago
In addition to an accidentally dropped disc not being a throw, it's considered one continuous possession if it doesn't hit the ground:
14.B. If the thrower accidentally drops a live disc or a disc in play without defensive interference and it contacts the ground before the thrower regains possession, it is considered a turnover. If the thrower regains possession of an accidentally dropped disc before it contacts the ground without another player touching the disc, that possession is considered continuous, and the stall count continues uninterrupted. If the thrower regains possession of an accidentally dropped disc before it contacts the ground and after another player touches it, it is considered a new possession.
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u/Altitude1986 5d ago
That was a mistake by whoever made that call in your past situation, and it shouldn’t have been a turnover.
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u/FieldUpbeat2174 6d ago
No, because there was no pull (yet). It’s equivalent to a puller deciding to tie their shoe first and putting the disc on the ground.
Suppose your team belatedly decided to switch pullers and transferred the disc by flipping it to the new puller. Would you say that amounts to a team catching its own pull?
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u/Sparrow-22 6d ago
Dropped pull at pick up games... Defense gets to set up. Receiving team must take disc at back corner of endzone Turnover Which rule does your pick up game go by?