r/ABCDesis • u/[deleted] • Aug 04 '26
POLITICS If Desi culture is so toxic, why should ABCDs be pro-immigration?
[deleted]
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u/False-Start2665 Aug 04 '26 edited Aug 04 '26
Immigration is tremendously beneficial from a humanitarian perspective. People who immigrate to the US and other western countries are substantially more productive than when they were in the country they left, increasing the global GDP. Immigration is also going to be necessary in the future because as the ratio between retirees and workers grows due to lower fertility rates, social security/pension costs will balloon and there are not enough taxpayers to pay for it without immigration and especially high skill immigration from India.
The culture of immigrants is not perfect but is far better than white western culture. No culture is as far removed from nature and humanity as white western culture. The west has practiced mass genocide, wars, chattel slavery, witch burnings and numerous other atrocities against humanity. Even though they have reformed slightly since the Holocaust and World War 2, US imperialism has killed millions of people across the world, 4.7 million in the middle east, 3.9 million in Vietnam, 1.5 million in North Korea. White men actually are responsible for a disproportionate amount of child sexual exploitation compared to their population size and the vast majority of child sexual exploitation in the UK is not group based.
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u/Intelligent_Read_697 Aug 04 '26
LOL your entire case based on your post and comments is classic conservative rationale and its to be expected given you as a subgroup are not comfortable with recent change so you want to halt progress because you specifically are inconvenienced.
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u/hailmaryfuIIofgrace Aug 04 '26
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u/Intelligent_Read_697 Aug 04 '26
Lol you just proved my point. Plus it’s clear that you think religion is all that is on offer from being desi. Just because you lack culture, history and heritage doesn’t mean the rest of us don’t.
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Aug 04 '26 edited Aug 04 '26
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u/Ok-Committee-1932 Aug 04 '26
Caste bias and UK grooming gangs are real
Very significant but still not that that common of problems given the scale of the diaspora.
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u/Competitive-Cover791 Aug 04 '26
Anecdotes here and there is one thing. But in high numbers and at a rate that becomes very noticeable and impactful causes concern. Especially in workplaces.
There is a balance to where you can address some of the problematic behaviors arising from the new set of immigrants and also be fine with lawful immigration. It’s not racist to want to prevent toxic behaviors from taking root in your country, especially if you and your family fled from it.
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u/hailmaryfuIIofgrace Aug 04 '26
Thanks. I feel like you actually understand my point of view and care about the position I am in.
A lot of other responses are very defensive but they don’t actually seem to address my real concerns.
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u/hailmaryfuIIofgrace Aug 04 '26
So you’re saying we should just live with the problems that come along with large scale Desi immigrant communities?
I guess the difference is that when my grandparents migrated in the 1970s there wasn’t a large Desi community around, so they naturally were forced to assimilate. Also being Catholics it was easier to migrate from a Hindu majority society to a Christian majority society.
The new wave of Desi immigrants actively oppose assimilation.
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u/Ok-Committee-1932 Aug 04 '26 edited Aug 04 '26
The new wave of Desi immigrants actively oppose assimilation.
This is a wild assertion. As long as you're selecting immigrants based on economic factors, you will be getting people who are extremely keen on holding jobs and assimilating into mainstream society.
It won't look like the assimilation the way Catholics, or more westernized desis, would. But it would be assimilation nevertheless. Sometimes it takes a few years of kids going to public school before the entire family essentially ends up being Americanized.
German and Swedish Americans were running elementary schools in German and Swedish all the way until right before World War II. Now you can't even recognize which German or Swedish American is.
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u/ibarmy Aug 04 '26
I think ppl who say/ use the term ‘new wave of immigrants’ are just using a dog whistle. They are classist and saying ‘ewww look at those immigrants who are just coming now -so uncouth”.
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Aug 04 '26
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u/hailmaryfuIIofgrace Aug 04 '26
I never said 1970s immigrants had better morals, I’m not my grandparents and was born decades later.
The problem is I think people would not support a Singapore style policy that aims to stop segregation.
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Aug 04 '26
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u/hailmaryfuIIofgrace Aug 04 '26
Ok… I don’t know what you’re arguing here.
Do you agree that there’s a problem with the lack of assimilation amongst new waves of immigrants?
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Aug 04 '26
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u/hailmaryfuIIofgrace Aug 04 '26
It’s crazy that you avoided discussing my legitimate concerns and instead tried to distract from the issue at hand.
You seem to even agree that enclaves are a problem but don’t want to delve deeper into why that is.
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u/IndianInferno Aug 04 '26
why would any ABCD who is already assimilated into Western society want more Desi immigration?
Because I have family in India and would like them to have the opportunity to come to the US or Canada?
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u/ibarmy Aug 04 '26 edited Aug 04 '26
Somebody give OP olympic gold medal. Such leaps should be awarded.
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u/hailmaryfuIIofgrace Aug 04 '26
Thanks.
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u/ibarmy Aug 04 '26
Btw idk if you are mallu catholic but in india that group is considered as one of the most conservative voting bloc and somebody who considers themselves as elites.
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u/hailmaryfuIIofgrace Aug 04 '26
From what I’ve read online there are 2 types of Catholics, those descendants from Orthodox Christians (the elite) and those descendants from low caste Hindus.
I am the latter on one side of my family and other side were Indian indentured servants, also Catholic but it’s hard to trace their ancestry.
I don’t know why this should be relevant, which is exactly why I am horrified of Desi culture. Why do you care about this shit?
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u/Intelligent_Read_697 Aug 05 '26
Bro you are the one here hating on other religions and try to make a case that desi culture is just religion.
Your whole view is classically what you see from conservative Christian mallu (not even exclusive to catholics) and some of this crowd share rhetoric similar to white Christian nationalists which is what you are spouting.
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u/Bollywood-Hulk-Hogan Indian-American (Punjabi) Aug 04 '26
What makes your family entitled to be here, but newer immigrants are not? 🤔
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u/hailmaryfuIIofgrace Aug 04 '26
It’s not about entitlement, it’s about the well being of greater society.
If many new immigrants oppose assimilation, hold antithetical views and cultural practices that don’t fit it in with Western society, that’s what I’m concerned about out.
My own family are a Catholic and they assimilated when they migrated. I assumed other Desis were like my family and wanted to be Westernised but it sounds like that’s not the case.
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u/Frogiie Aug 04 '26 edited Aug 04 '26
“I assumed other Desis were like my family and wanted to be Westernised but it sounds like that’s not the case.”
Did every other Desi tell you this? Because it also sounds like you’re pulling that right out of your bum.
Because man, this type of generalization is exactly the kind of junk the current crop of immigrant hating crazies ascribe to. Saying others can’t/don”t/won’t ever integrate or assimilate. And yet they overwhelmingly do…
Let’s be clear. You and your family nor older generations of immigrants aren’t more virtuous, harder working, or somehow better, more willing at integrating or assimilating than other generations of immigrants. And I say this as the child of an older ABCD immigrant generation.
In 1907 a mob of white people attacked South Asians in Belliham Washington. Those whom they attacked were mostly Sikh. And what were they called? Hindu. It didn’t actually matter what religion they were. The mob attacked them anyway.
Back in the 70’s 80’s and 90’s there was a gang of people in New Jersey called the “Dot Busters”. They went around harassing and attacking South Asians and declared they would physically attack any Hindu person they saw.
Eventually, they killed a man named Navroze Mody he wasn’t Hindu, he was Parsi, he was a citibank manager in Manhattan. He had recently bought his first house in New Jersey.%20man%20after%20he%20had%20left%20the%20Gold%20Coast%20Caf%C3%A9%20with%20his%20friend.%20Mody%20fell%20into%20a%20coma%20and%20died%20four%20days%20later) Again, it didn’t matter what religion or how integrated or assimilated he was. They killed him.
Do you really think a racist mob would stop and say “oh actually this one is a Catholic minority from low caste ancestors in India and well assimilated, let’s spare them”?
I am not an immigrant. I recognize immigrants are good. They contribute massively to the nation, help power the economy. They create jobs, innovate, create awesome art & food, they are top students, scientists, doctors, and various professionals, they contribute to culture, they give our nation its competitive edge, and so many other wonderful things. They are my wonderful family, coworkers, and friends.
So while I’m not an immigrant but I love being a nation composed of immigrants and their descendants. Why the hell would I not want that?
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u/hailmaryfuIIofgrace Aug 04 '26
Minorities were all experiencing extreme racism in the past, there’s no denying that.
The difference is that today the scale of Desi immigration is huge and now there is a threat coming from within the Desi population.
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u/TestingLifeThrow1z Aug 04 '26
So locals stop having kids and new labour has to be brought on to pay off social programs. You call out new labour trying to help everyone. You haven’t assimilated because racism is not part of being Catholic or being in North America.
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u/hailmaryfuIIofgrace Aug 04 '26
I don’t think you understand, humans mean more to me than their monetary value.
When the new immigrants coming here hate the West and the people who initially invited them into their country, that’s when we need to rethink things.
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u/Tight-Cow1483 Aug 08 '26
Give it up already. You're obviously some white troll, otherwise, I just feel horrible for you. As so many others have pointed out, what makes you think you're different? None of the new immigrants have ever said they hated the West, that's your white nationalist propaganda blaring on repeat 😂
I have sympathy for you given that this is probably what your family believes too. But you seriously need to do some inner work with yourself and start questioning your beliefs and their origins. You mentioned you did some research with the caste system, what exactly makes this different with the unlabelled system most of Europe (and ESPECIALLY the UK) have used for centuries? Go back and research colonisation in South Asia, start with the British East India Company and work your way to why India has its borders drawn the way it does. This will help you gain a very very basic understanding of colonisation in South Asia and why people are the way they are, and how to unravel your prejudices.
It's entirely up to you if you want to find the truth. If you want to keep living in a bubble, soaking up the white nationalist propaganda you claim to avoid, it's your choice. Don't come to this sub expecting sympathy for supremacist views. You have the option here to stop rejecting your Desi identity, only you can choose it.
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u/Bollywood-Hulk-Hogan Indian-American (Punjabi) Aug 04 '26
Which new immigrants oppose assimilation and practice things that oppose Western society? Idk which country you’re from, but America is a melting pot. As long as you’re not breaking a law or being a public nuisance, you can follow whatever cultural practices you want. And which antithetical views are you talking about? Literally half of the white people in Western countries hold the same views which aren’t exactly “progressive”.
You do realize that these countries allow immigration because it’s a positive to their society, right? White people aren’t letting in brown people out of the goodness of their heart, lol.
You being Catholic doesn’t make you special. Geez, you sound like a Dinesh D’Souza Jr in the making 😂😂
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u/hailmaryfuIIofgrace Aug 04 '26
I think Hindus who believe in the caste system and Muslims who believe in Sharia law, that is antithetical to Western society and to Indian Christians.
I find it very offensive that you’re mocking me as an Indian Catholic, is this a prelude to what I should be expecting more of?
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u/False-Start2665 Aug 04 '26
What about Christian white nationalists who support Christian laws such as Leviticus 20:13 which calls for putting homosexuals to death? Is that not antithetical to western society?
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u/Naditya64 Australian Indian Aug 04 '26
To add to the list: the push to ban abortions, ban gay marriage, ban cannabis, ban adult content, the banning of anything to do with LGBTQ+ people, the push to repeal a woman’s right to vote, eroding secular democracy to establish a theocracy, injecting religion into public schools, grooming young girls to become broodmares, promoting conversion “therapy” (torture) etc etc etc.
Pretty sure all of that is antithetical to Western liberal/secular society.
Systematic kid-diddling is antithetical to humanity but I’ll leave it at that. Anyways, I suddenly and randomly have the urge to rewatch 2016 film Spotlight.
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u/hailmaryfuIIofgrace Aug 04 '26
Which Christian White nationalist group believe that? I don’t support White nationalism regardless.
Today most Christians, especially Catholics are much more progressive than Hindus and Muslims. Some Protestant Christians do have some very extreme beliefs, and I don’t support that either.
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u/False-Start2665 Aug 04 '26
Devout Christians believe that gay people should be put to death because the bible says so in Leviticus 20:13
"If there is a man who sleeps with a male as those who sleep with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they must be put to death. They have brought their own deaths upon themselves."
Doesn't seem all that compatible with western society. I don't see how most Christians are more progressive than Hindus when Hindus are more accepting of abortion and LGBTQ communities.
https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2012/07/abortion.gif
https://www.prri.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/most-religious-americans-2-1024x1007.png
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u/hailmaryfuIIofgrace Aug 04 '26
Those are not the only ways to measure how progressive people are.
A lot of Hindu and Muslim immigrants tend to be less accepting of their children marrying outside their community, which I think is a huge problem.
In my own family there have been many mixed marriages and it’s crazy to me that other Desi families are not accepting of that.
I think in a modern western progressive society, people should live together as one community and intermarry, not only stick with their own.
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u/False-Start2665 Aug 04 '26 edited Aug 04 '26
Indian immigrants are the most progressive group in America overall.
Lots of white people are extremely against interracial marriages especially ones involving white women with black men.
https://www.tiktok.com/@kylie.brewer/video/7665400556722130207
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u/TestingLifeThrow1z Aug 04 '26
You're not recognizing that being pro-choice and for secular policy is hurt by policies influenced by you. You're scapegoating fellow desis onto something that has nothing to do with them. What sky daddy you believe in has nothing to do with the West.
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u/False-Start2665 Aug 04 '26
Why do they need to assimilate? America has always been a melting pot of different cultures. What about Indian culture does not fit in western society? Caste is largely a non issue after the first generation and caste is practiced across religion in South Asia, including by Christians. Indians contribute more in tax revenue than white people.
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u/hailmaryfuIIofgrace Aug 04 '26
A melting pot is when cultures mix with each other and all became American.
I’m not actually from America but regardless it’s the same situation in my country.
Nobody in my family identifies with a caste, we shed the stigma of being a low caste person generations ago, and I don’t want that culture being shoved back onto us by the new waves of immigrants who clearly don’t care about us at all.
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u/proof_required German Aug 04 '26 edited Aug 04 '26
By the way European immigrants didn't assimilate. They wiped out whatever native culture was and imposed their own.
Even after imposing their culture, they used to segregate quite a bit. How do you think little Greek and Italian part of cities came into existence?
You are just falling for modern whitewashed narratives from white people. They have convinced themselves and other people that their immigration was somehow more justified and modern non white immigration isn't. Then they weave all the narratives that you hear these days from them - "they don't assimilate to they'll replace the whites".
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u/hailmaryfuIIofgrace Aug 04 '26
Yes, and many of those European immigrant enclaves have broken down over time. The proportion of immigrants to locally born people was very different back in those days, so many of them have married outside their ethnic community today.
Italian immigrants used to get arranged marriages a century ago but they quickly stopped that practice, meanwhile there’s even some ABCDs who believe arranged marriages are okay even though it’s a tradition that upholds the caste system.
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u/False-Start2665 Aug 04 '26
Who defines what is and isn't American? Every group of people has their own issues. White people practice racism and white supremacy, does that mean European immigration to the US should stop? As if most white people have ever cared about black and brown people, look at how USAID was recently ended which is estimated to cause hundreds of thousands of deaths.
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u/Inevitable-Cow-8489 British Indian Aug 04 '26
looks like shabana mahmood just got reddit
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u/SharpAardvark8699 Aug 04 '26
More like Suella Braverman the Catholic. Shabanas own ethnic group has been attacked here although this person cleverly disguised it as Muslim even tho none of the "gang", was religious at all. They just came from one area of PK. Anyway, Suella has entered the chat
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u/Inevitable-Cow-8489 British Indian Aug 04 '26
This guy sounds priya patel 2.0 omg read his replies... it is almost like that onlyy catholic people are fit for immigration. Such a coconut
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u/hailmaryfuIIofgrace Aug 04 '26
Never said that only Catholic people are fit for immigration.
The problem is the lack of assimilation from immigrants and formation of ethnic enclaves. It wasn’t so much of a problem decades ago when there were hardly any Desis migrating.
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u/SharpAardvark8699 Aug 04 '26
If you're in Britain a lot of that enclave has formed under Tory rules. I can say to you Britain's Muslims did not ask for this.
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u/hailmaryfuIIofgrace Aug 04 '26
Not from Britain but wow, I didn’t know the British government had a history of forced segregation.
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u/SharpAardvark8699 Aug 04 '26
Forced segregation? That's got to be a joke . There's people from everywhere everywhere. Goodbye. Your post is just full of hate
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u/SharpAardvark8699 Aug 04 '26
Something stinks on this post even tho I'm anti immigration. You've used some really lazy tropes. There is no "*gang". It was a group of men who misused vulnerable teens. And they weren't "Muslim". These people didn't go to a mosque, no mosque has ever approved of their behaviour and have in fact condemned it. None of them was religious in the slightest. As opposed to being Muslim they in fact whether a lone man or a clique or whatever they belong to one area of Pakistan. That's all they had in common. Literally one small region which I won't mention here. If you really want to talk about Catholics, then honestly I've seen some very caste type behaviour from Catholic FOBs who came recently and think they are above everyone
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u/hailmaryfuIIofgrace Aug 04 '26 edited Aug 04 '26
I highlighted that because I didn’t want to write an essay on the Mirpuri Pakistani community in the UK.
Either way, the point is that their culture is incompatible with the West.
I’m not condoning immigration from Catholics, the caste system is incompatible with the bible. Any aspects of Hindu culture, particularly the caste system, should not be retained.
That being said, it’s primarily Hindus with a vested interest in upholding the caste system and you know that most of us Catholics/Christians are descendants of low castes, not high castes.
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u/SharpAardvark8699 Aug 04 '26
Just say Mirpuri. We all know it ever since that article. Muslims/Asians/Pakistani should not be labelled because of them. And they are not IndoPak culture. They are Persian culture. Even their climate is different.
I'm a Muslim and I'm sick of it too. Yes some of them are incredibly sweet. But 3 generations on are we seriously driving dangerously and killing people? They need to get a grip on their young men
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u/Puzzleheaded-Bike336 Black American Aug 04 '26
I've been pro-immigration my entire life, and I support bringing more immigrants from India, admittedly due to business self-interest.
I'm currently supporting a person who is working on immigrating to the US.
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u/GoldForward2378 🇮🇳 Aug 08 '26
Bro who defines assimilating??What might be assimilated to you might not be to someone else-what would you say to someone like me who still is learning english and doesnt understand a lot of american culture because I am a recent immigrant.I can assure you that Hindus do not live for the caste system.I live in an area full of Hindu people and interact with MANY of them and barely any of them have ever uttered a word about the caste system.The horror stories are pretty small considering the scale of Desi Diaspora.The reason christian desis are less spoken about is simply because there are less of them.Hindu and Muslims for the most part dont hate christians either.As a Muslim many parts of Hinduism are good and very useful and reducing there culture to just the caste system is ridiculous and disingenuous
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u/hailmaryfuIIofgrace Aug 09 '26
There are more Indian Christians in the US than Indian Sikhs or Indian Muslims.
Assimilation is the process where a person or group takes on the traits, habits, and values of a dominant culture or system, making them similar to or absorbed by that group - Encyclopaedia Britannica
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u/GoldForward2378 🇮🇳 Aug 09 '26
I said Desis not Indians and didnt specify U.S just about how they are spoken about in general
And that definition is still very subjective.How many traits??What kind of traits??how Similar??etc
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u/A_Knife_for_Phaedrus Aug 04 '26
Do we not care about Christians, or do we not care about people who hate our culture? I've never heard a bad thing said about people like S. K. Rudra, or other Christians that were pro-Indian.
I don't care if you're pro/anti-Indian-immigration, but to be so over "stories I heard", is peek Uncle Tom behavior. You're "horrified" over the caste system, but you're okay aligning with White supremacists. You pin the crimes of rape-gangs onto their race, but I doubt you'd racialize Epstein, or other cases of White people exploiting/trafficking children. You wear "assimilation" as a badge of pride, unaware you've assimilated the West's hatred of you.