Discussion
Finally tried out the game thinking its just valve flavored league but...
Never thought id enjoy it on account of being a moba and everything but I was told there'd be other modes like a single player mode, that and i completely fell for the rem propaganda
Regardless its a...alright game definitely early access but aside from that im kinda enjoying it despite getting mogged 15-0 in a couple of street brawl matches but yeah fun game. Fingers crossed nurse harrow comes out next cause I want more supports
Blizzard had nothing to do with the development of actual dota. They made warcraft 3, which is obviously the foundation, but had nothing to do with dota's design philosophy
That's being disingenius. A ton of stuff in the moba genre and DotA traces back to Warcraft. Destroying buildings as a win condition. Hero units having stats, and 6 items, the 3 abilities + ultimate. A ton of heroes were originally just ripped straight from WC3.
Where does the foundation end and the design philosophy begin?
Well two of them. And one of those devs shut down the dota forums as soon as he got hired and stole all the ideas on it and replaced it with a LoL ad. Icefrog has always been the better og dev anyway.
No, all i just named is 100% blizzards design for the game warcraft 3, for dota the community added the 3 lines, the waves of creeps, some original skills and items, etc. All the base mechanics are a 1x1 from warcraft 3
A lot of people are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I said WC3 was the foundation, and that everything that Dota changed/added had nothing to do with blizzard devs
Actually actually, Mobas were born in the custom games of Warcraft 2 or 3. From what I understand, Valve hired the dude who made the mod to make Dota. And that dude is very likely Yoshi, the lead dev on Deadlock.
I hate what blizzard has become but back in the day I fucking loved the Starcraft 2 custom game mode. So much good shit has come out of Warcraft/Starcraft custom game modes. So many good ideas in there. I haven't found a modding scene like it anywhere else.
Pretty close. Aeon of Strife was the first ancient defense game, make in StarCraft 1. WC3 added official heroes and DotA was born. Then Valve took over the game from Blizzard and Riot made a copy and pushed hard to change the genre to “MOBA” to distance themselves from the term DotA (which is moronic because both DotA and Battle Arenas existed in WC3 and were completely different games, but money and underhanded, slimy moves work, so now we have MOBAs).
Also, the OG is Euls, but IceFrog (who may or may not be Yoshi) was indeed part of some of the earlier iterations of DotA.
The actual first MOBA was Aeon of Strife for StarCraft 1. During wc3 you had more MOBAs than just DotA like Tides of Blood and the boat one. Icefrog also didn't even actually make DotA originally. He ended up joining the team later down the line when it was DotA All Stars iirc. Pendragon from the wc3 DotA team ended up shutting down the site when he was developing League of Legends and then stole hero ideas from that site for League. This is why DotA fans tend to hate on League too. You then had Heroes of Newerth that was also trying to be the new standalone DotA clone, but it was like a 30 dollar MOBA in early 2010s. Eventually Valve then came out with DotA 2, which Icefrog was the lead dev on.
I loved playing custom games on wc3 and sc2 too. It was such a fun time.
FYI, you're probably about to be furiously downvoted by salty dota fans just for saying it out loud. They've always been in denial of how moba market looks and just how absurdly more popular league is compared to literally anything else.
Paradoxically, Dota is one of the most popular games on Steam but seems to have disproportionately small cultural relevance.
Every gamer I've ever talked to, enthusiast or casual, knows what League is, plays/has played it, knows some of the characters, or has at least watched Arcane. Even my uncle who plays nothing but World of Warcraft.
Less than half of these people even knew about Dota, and even less played it, whether actively or in the past.
I'm aware this is anecdotal evidence but its just my experience.
It's also a regional bias thing tbh. There's pockets of Central and South America where Dota is more popular than League for example. Anecdotal on my end is I knew a Peruvian dude who full on could not name a League of Legends character if his life was on the line, maybe he could luck into Teemo to be generous, but played Dota 2 daily and knew most of the casts full names+titles, the kinda dude to call Anti-Mage Magina.
There's a similar thing in fighting games where globally Street Fighter is probably the default, but there's pockets where King of Fighters is more popular, pockets where Tekken is more popular, places where Mortal Kombat is more popular. Hell there was a point in time where I'd bet money that Soulcalibur was the most popular fighting game in France. Even in this internet age and online game era there's a lot of regional bias within genres.
Yeah same, every person I know who games, has at least tried league, if not played for a couple hundred hours. I couldn't even get a single one of them to try dota with me
Well, this largely depends on where you're from. But if you were a PC gamer in the 2010s it'd be weird to not know about Dota. Hell, it's the second most played game on steam, it's still fucking weird to not know about Dota.
Not in denial, just personally prefer Dota to League. Not everyone wants to play the more complex game. Where I do get salty is League fans coming to Deadlock trying to turn this game into League.
I've seen people demanding that the game has more clearly defined roles like League does, included dedicated a jungle role.
League players asking for a way to report off meta builds because its "throwing" (they said in their post "like league has").
There's also a vocal group demanding a surrender option, and the only games I've ever played with those are Riot's games.
I know not every League player who comes and plays deadlock is doing this, but there are a subset who are. There's also a subset who come from Overwatch or Marvel Rivals and want the game to be more like those too and I think they are equally bad.
league of legends is not the only game to have an ff button, valve is actually relatively unique in the gaming industry in not including them, especially given the length of cs/dota/deadlock matches
we can argue the merits of ff/no ff vote, but it should also be noted valve is a company that is notoriously terrible at making anticheats, and being unable to ff against an aimbotter is one of the worst experiences in gaming
Smite, rocket league, valorant (also riot i know),
r6 siege, and some other mobile mobas like MLBB
league of legends has lots of comeback mechanics, the point of the ff vote is that there’s lots of games where people just decide something is lost and will give up, ff or no ff
ill be transparent, I prefer valve and dota2's philosophy to league's...but I have played league and understand it well enough to remain somewhat impartial.
but from what I've seen in this community and within my own games, people want:
surrender button
more defined role and gun/spirit scaling that's closer aligned to league's airtight kit philosophy
to the effect of the last point, less of an emphasis on counterbuying/offmeta building and a higher emphasis on L - R building
higher emphasis on skillshots, removing point and click CC like seven and wraith stuns
stronger t1 turrets
funnily enough, i rarely see anyone advocating for a true jungle role. I think league gamers that are trying other games sort of recognize how much of a nightmare it is at times
the jungle role created a lot of headache for riot, they wanted people to be creative but as it was the way to win games it just became so mainstream they had to follow along.
Yeah, because Dota was sabotaged by a guy hired by Riot to make League that should be in jail for his crimes, so yeah were salty and the hate is justifed.
League is doing fine. Riot is just a horribly mismanaged company that loves to piss away money.
Whoever suggested 2XKO would be profitable as a f2p game with that much runway should be walked, especially when all the FGC vets they brought in to help work on it (some of whom I know irl) could have told them that was a VERY fucking stupid idea. If I had a nickel for every time I slept on someone's floor after traveling out of town to go 0-2 at King of Fighters and Current ArcSys Fighter... That's the wrong demographic to expect to whale.
i made this exact comment on the league sub in a thread about league classic getting punted to a rotational game mode
they clearly have project management issues company wide and are somewhat resting on their laurels with league and valorant
but games like deadlock and honestly even sleeper hits that are clearly inspired by their titles like guildrun are going to become a real problem if they continue coasting.
guildrun is the fucking truth, and honestly if i was riot i would be kicking myself that we did not allow our guys to bring that vision to TFT. it would have been the perfect mode to bring the single-player competitive market to the riot ecosystem
Look what Riot did to Mortdog. Its no surprise unfortunately, and check out how they handled League Classic recently. Going to be interesting to see if they can turn around the ship or if it will cause them to keep losing relevance. It would be interesting to see league's player numbers in recent years.
It's not like it's lacking reason, though. Apart from the ego battle, at least.
Riot was built exactly after Pendragon pulled the rug out on the ENTIRE DotA community, closing the Forum where everything was.
And guess where some of the champions in LoL came directly from? Basically 1:1. I'll give you 1 guess.
Years later, Pendragon published an archive of the old website he shut down. Guess what was missing from the files?
So yeah, if you support this company, you're basically conniving with their actions. Riot wouldn't even exist if it wasn't for the THEFT of ideas and concepts.
Also if you were a Dota player, and Riot treated your game the way that they did in League's infancy, it would be easy to understand why Dota players have a problem with Riot/League.
Dota, Defense of the Ancients, was a freely openly released map, much like other maps like Angel Arena, and many people made their own versions.
The one that is played today, that became dota 2, was not just "dota" it was, full title, Defense of the Ancients: Allstars, which was a compilation of heroes from other dota maps that were made by the community, hence the "Allstars" part, it was taking the best ideas of other maps.
Later on icefrog joined this version and led the development (alongside many others) and while this was when dota became so popular and was what made it what it is today, it still had a far longer history of many years before that.
Deadlock is very much like dota. There are heroes with half of their kit taken from dota (puck > pocket) and items that are basically just taken right from dota (refresher, unstoppable, tesla bullets). Buffs spawning in the "river" at set times just like runes, map asymmetry just like dota, mid boss giving extra lives like aegis, etc. You can see dota's bones everywhere you look in Deadlock, which should surprise no one considering they are both Icefrog's games.
When I first played Deadlock I saw Sinclair and was like "Ok, so this is the Rubrik, and Ursa is the Werewolf lady, and Vindicta is Sniper, Wraith is Drow, Haze is Bounty Hunter...."
I only actively play one of them—two counting Deadlock—so I'm not up to date on their exact status, but:
Dota 2
Deadlock
League of Legends
Smite
Smite 2
Heroes of the Storm
Pokemon Unite
Dragon Ball Gekishin Squadra (kinda.....)
I know those are definitely still live. Other than that, I assume Mobile Legends: Bang Bang, Arena of Valor, Honor of Kings, and Wild Rift are still active, and I'm fairly? certain? at least one of the Paragon spiritual successors is still running, but I couldn't tell you whether it's Predecessor or Overprime.
How though, I can count these titles just from my mind;
Obviously League of Legends, Dota 2, Heroes of the Storm, Smite, Paragon, Shards of War, Mobile Legends, Vain Glory, Arena of Valor, Land of Chaos Online, Infinite Crisis, Super Monday Night Combat, hell there was even star wars themed moba game in mobile.
Valve being recognized for what they do best again and Yoshi/Icefrog showing his decades of experience in the genre is what makes deadlock so good and I'm glad players of other games are appreciating and enjoy aspect of the games.
Personally also happy that League players are trying out the game aside from praising Riot as the goat of 'Moba'.
I also notice there are 2 kinds of 'salty dota fans'. There are those who does it for superiority (because dota2 is a superior game imo), and those who were there when fuckass Pendragon went full shill and abandoned the community (that's me, I'm old)
No argument from me that League is the more popular game, marketing does wonders. This game is a gem though, and glad gamers who aren't familiar with the genre are willing to give it shot
I mean, seems like they did a better job this time with visual appeal, etc.
Game looks way more iconic = brings more people
+ Gameplay is fun
I tried DOTA and the experience I had was not even similar to Deadlock
Dota is a product if accumulated time and its not a game intended to be the mass appeal. The dark medieval theme and its orchestral music is dota, and wont be as popular as a game who collabs with kpop bands and linkin park.
At the end of the day dota didnt do a worse job, its just playing on a different market.
Same. I could never do the whole top down perspective as someone that’s played shooters for decades. Deadlock came along and it’s like a lightbulb went off. I can’t imagine playing any other MOBA
But its influence is everywhere, Roadhog from overwatch is inspired by pudge. I would love to see a league player attempt to play invoker. Icefrog is that guy and he lets his work do the talking.
League for me lost its sauce when they started releasing sameface skins that made the champs lose their identity. Show me 2 different skins from league and those mobas on a mobile device and you wouldn't see the difference.
Yeah but league has akashan. Every now and then i go back to one trick him for a month and then im out. I need a here with a swing mechanic in deadlock
I played about a year ago with some friends and got into their high elo lobbies where I was systematically dissected on repeat for about 5 games before giving it a rest. Now I just redownloaded it and am only solo queuing and having a great time. It's amazing what you can do when you are actually given the time to learn the game around people of your own skill instead of being thrown straight into the deep end and trying to rely solely on good-ish aim.
Yup, the same thing happened to me. Played about 80 hours and then realized that I was being carried and more often than not, I was getting absolutely ass blasted. I had a teammate flame me so hard that I disconnected and uninstalled the game and didn’t play for almost a year and half.
When Old Gods, New Blood dropped, I did more solo queueing and the addiction started creeping in. When ranked dropped, the game had successfully grabbed me by the balls lol
I love the hell out of the game, but I want to try and play every hero so I can pick a main but the matches take 40-50 minutes, meaning it'll genuinely take me just under 30 hours to have played a single match as each character 😭
Highest ranks, most league matches go around 30 mins minimum or 15 cuz ff culture. Thats cuz league is an objective/timer based game unlike deadlock and the objectives are game winning (also why league has a dedicated jungle role and why it wouldnt work for deadlock)
I love the game to death but the fact that games average 40 minutes means I couldn’t get into it. That and the matchmaking was still awful when I played so I never had much fun
If you play solo right now, it's not terrible. Just gotta remember, don't play to win. Play to get better. If you're getting hung up on wins and losses, you're taking a recreational activity too seriously. Play to enjoy the feel of the game, the characters, the new map even, just play for something other than winning. Brawl offers bite sized chunks of pure team fighting. It's great to get used to the game and just do the fun bits.
Problem is the matchmaking is so unbalanced that it makes the game unenjoyable. How can I improve if the person I’m playing against is so much better that they completely shut me down? There’s nothing to be learned from being dominated by
Teaches you how to play defensive, and to locate funds elsewhere if you cant get any in lane. You also have to keep in mind the Golden Rule of the Moba:
40% of your games are guarnteed wins
40% of your games are guarnteed losses
20% of your games you will make an impact indivdually, you will know when these games happen and can improve from them.
It is the worst matchmaking for a moba ive experienced in a while tho.
I stopped caring about winning or losing because of how wildly the quality of games swings. I have had games where i was the only one with any objective damage. These are not super uncommon.
I mean, you shouldn't care about w or l anyways, but usually i care a little. Now i literally dont give a shit. I just try my heart out and see where it takes me (to brick rank that seems to be the case)
I also swear ive seen giga cracked players in seeker that do not belong with the rest. Had a five losestreak a few weeks ago because i kept matching the same drifter who went 30/0 every game and quadrupled our soul counts. I was the only one that remotely stood a chance vs him but he was just much better than me too. It is quite normal for this to happen too.
Maybe its bc i play in asia and player counts are lower here, but i literally feel like i see every skill level in seeker lol.
I quit playing a year ago because matches were on average 50-60mins and I couldn't handle that kind of time investment just to take an L. I recently picked it back up again and matches are generally 30-40mins now, which is still long but imo much more tolerable.
Had a similar experience in casual. Back then people really couldn't close but now they seem to bumrush enemy base for better or worse
I don't know if it's an influx of hero shooter players who don't really care about souls and farming but damn they finish early, some in the 20 minutes
I actually wish my games were longer so i had some time to just chill and get stronger
the only other moba i've played is Smite 2 and I hated it, felt like there was too much shit on my screen. but now 100hrs in on Deadlock, I love it here.
It really didn't feel like early access when the mobs were stationary tokens that shoot? Or when the constant mechanic changes happen like the urn running? Or when my ults get consumed for no effect on people like Danny? It's definitely early access, not a bad game though.
I'm just shocked that you enjoyed it on the first try. It took my friend a good month or two to convince me only for me to be flamed to ash in my very first game cause I didn't know how to play Kelvin. Then I found my GOAT Viscous and everything was fine.
Deadlock made me realise that literally after so many years of playtime other competetive games suck so badly.
The only one other game I can play beside Deadlock rn is Overwatch, mostly with friends, but also it still has some absolute gem of a character like Rammatra.
The original Dota is now sequestered to the ancient times. The unknown portions of the internet. So old the original game was created in a different game, and anyone younger than like 25 isnt even aware of the origins.
Yeah not really my thing, see i play aggressively, like "cant lose if the enemy is dead" aggressive. I gained bunker queen in overwatch for those reasons. Regardless I tend to stick to supports so I can out tjat aggressiveness is healing rather then fighting and getting my shit kicked in
Yah it took a long time for a third person moba to arrive with some real verticality to it. Started from smite but that game has 0 verticality so pretty much fake 3d, moved to paragon had some verticality but it got scrapped and hey deadlock is perfect so..
I think Deadlock is the one game where me and all my friends can be on a lose streak after having obnoxious matches due to like
A Holiday in our team only farming jungle since laning phase doesnt matter.
Or as in recent events,
The enemy team getting all new heroes.
But one of us will still hit us up with "one more" and we will all just silently agree because this game is great.
You can see and feel the love put into the game. That's what makes Deadlock great. The little details and references are awesome. The voice acting feels real and engaging, characters banter with each other it feels alive and refreshing. Sure there is alot of unfinished stuff but the game plays great and that's what makes a huge difference. Also it's released yet so... technically it's still a W.I.P.
I prefer support aswell and Paige was my first main. Pretty easy to pick up but still allows for some cool gamewinning plays with vortex web for example. Her shield at max is one of the best abilities in the game and makes her deceptively hard to kill sometimes esp if you play for other support items like divine barrier. People are gonna try to jump you a lot but you can use that your advantage by building a decent amount of defensive greens to make them overextend. (Grit basically gives free kills in lane against less experienced enemies bc they never expect it when trying to dive you)
This game has brought out my dormant high schooler LoL/CoD energy, but without the language I'd have used back then. When the enemies get too fed and I cant do anything and feel the need to vocalize out loud how useless I am. When I feel like a god for escaping with 10hp and get loud. When I tell my friends how the random Billy I got stuck laning with is 1/9/0 with an IQ of 14 because he keeps tower diving them at full hp.
there will be people out there who think every single moment in this game uses moba strats to succeed and they will be right most of the time and amazingly wrong the rest of the time
Part of me is on the verge of taking the plunge. There's an air of anxiety about not knowing everything and how to do it perfectly. But that's my brain expecting me to be a master before I can be a beginner. But I think this weekend I'll play the game and not just practice with bots
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u/TestIllustrious7935 1d ago
Calling it Valve-flavored League is funny when League was created to be Riot-flavored Dota