r/DeadlockTheGame • u/Mashaaaaaaaaa Mina • 1d ago
Screenshot Huh???
I wanted to take a look at the winrates of Violet and Danny, but saw something so surprising that I got sidetracked. Since when is Graves 58% WR material in top 10% rank??? Afaik that means Oracle and above. I'm used to seeing Graves having giant winrate numbers in Brick, but this is new. And it's a sample of almost 600 games, so it's not particularly tiny either.
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u/IncomePrimary3641 1d ago
graves is good in the current meta because she can just spam out a bunch of shit and take walkers and is extremely difficult to 1v1 if shes not being an idiot,
plus a lot of heros just struggle to clear her zombies fast so if you ult at a walker they can push to the tombstone (who solo pushes an obvious trap) or have to be there for ages so shes crazy good at generating macro pressure, same reason rem is an op little gremlin
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u/Spaghetoes76 1d ago
Like basically all the new heroes suck at dealing with the zombies.
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u/Mashaaaaaaaaa Mina 1d ago
Rat has his Scrap Grenade and a pretty solid gun, Solomon has his bishops and rooks, Danny just flies over them and pummels them from the air. I think only Baba and Violet struggle with them?
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u/BowlingJoe 1d ago
Well if graves leaves the zombies to push the towers alone Violet can just wall them off potentially.
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u/Spaghetoes76 1d ago
scrap grenade is really not that good at it. The zombies are fast and dont tend to group up enough. Rat kings gun is okay but he doesnt buy tesla or richoche. Danny i havent tried, probably the best. Solomon is decent but it depends a lot where they are coming from and you might not wanna use your pieces on them or have them placed for it.
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u/nananananim Apollo 1d ago
Ever since the zombie changes, Graves has been super annoying to deal with. Definitely stronger now.
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u/Nite0wl007 1d ago
I mean in a teamfight. it's just random bullshi go right now and when you actually find her, she deals a ton of dmg anyway lol.
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u/bigtree2x5 1d ago
Wait what did they do to the zombies
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u/Legitimate-Beat-9846 Graves 1d ago
The biggest one is they don’t blow up if someone is above them. Pre change using her ult for pressure was genuine useless tech because you clear wave wall hop above zombies they die without damaging you and break tombstone. It was even worse on rift
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u/Abishinzu Violet 1d ago
They're no longer running on shortbus AI.
They'll actually go after mobs and seek out objectives, meaning that a competent Graves can just be a literal fruit fly and keep jungling and backdooring so you have to keep splitting the team up to keep her from solo-taking objectives.
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u/midnightsock 1d ago
And they did this when???
-1
u/Abishinzu Violet 1d ago
City Never Sleeps Update.
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u/midnightsock 1d ago
Not that i dont believe you but i cant find anything about her zombies in the changelog for cns?
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u/Abishinzu Violet 1d ago
It might not have been CNS precisely, but it should be around that time period. They improved Ghoul AI so they can actually clean mobs, and if unoccupied, will head towards the nearest objective point.
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u/SmashMouthBreadThrow Viscous 1d ago
They also still haven't fixed her ability to place tombstone in spots that cost all of your stamina to hit once.
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u/Sudden-Ad-307 1d ago
For a long ass time at this point. People just shit on her becuase she is braindead but she just brings a ton of value to the team. Place ult where they can't destory it and echo shard your 2 and you are gonna be useful even if you are behind.
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u/chaotic4059 Deadman Danny 1d ago
People always forget that braindead doesn't mean weak. A braindead character that's average or gets good value becomes a fucking nightmare in the hands of a competent person. Like rocket in rivals. Absolute braindead character. 55% WR because a bad player still contributes and a good one becomes damn near unkillable
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u/Tee__B 1d ago
That's also partially because Rivals has horrendous design and balancing centered around the lowest commons denominators. In OW, whenever Moira is average or good, she's not a problem. When Junkrat is good, there's tons of counterplay. Rocket in Rivals, for instance, is a problem because he gets insane value while sniffing gluesticks and AFKing. I don't think Deadlock has anything close to the atrocious designs of Rivals.
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u/SmashMouthBreadThrow Viscous 1d ago edited 1d ago
I don't think Deadlock has anything close to the atrocious designs of Rivals.
I mean, the pictured three plus heroes like Victor and Rat King are poorly designed. Overall though, the balance and design of heroes are nowhere near as zero thought put into them as Marvel Rivals.
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u/zencharm Victor 1d ago
what makes graves, celeste, AND paige AND victor AND rat king all poorly designed heroes? these heroes are all very different from each other. what is the through line that makes ALL of them poorly designed? which heroes do you even think are well-designed?
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u/Loufey Rem 1d ago
Obligatory: "The API access is limited, take all information from these websites with a grain of salt"
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u/BreakinWordz 1d ago
That is NOT how statistics work.
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u/Loufey Rem 1d ago
thats exactly how statistics work.
im informing people that these stats are based on an incomplete data set.
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u/BreakinWordz 1d ago
So because every single game hasnt been recorded you think that these winrates are not accurate? Are you a bot?
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u/Loufey Rem 1d ago
its not a fully representative sample.
the auto gathering data misses games, but a lot of players have their games set up to manually input data. this was a whole thing like a year ago at this point.
naturally, the players that auto input their data, and want to track their stats out of game, are going to be the better players. the tryhards.
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u/NewAnt3365 1d ago
This lmao. Like the average Joe doesn’t even know stat locker exists.
If I am looking at my own profile out of curiosity it is looking at the few games that are there cause I assume someone else has their auto on. Most of my games are missing which means a lot of people aren’t using this thing. Hell I have two games from the past two weeks despite playing way more than that.
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u/BreakinWordz 1d ago
And how does anything you just said influence character win rates.
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u/Loufey Rem 1d ago
Here's an example.
I look in my yard. I find 10 big rocks.
Are those 10 rocks all of the rocks in my yard? No.
Are all of the rocks in my yard automatically big rocks? No.
That is statlocker looking at match data.
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u/BreakinWordz 1d ago
You are being ignorant thinking a sample of a data set is likely to be vastly different than all of the data set.
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u/Loufey Rem 1d ago
and i just explained how statlocker data is skewed and explictly not a representative sample
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u/BreakinWordz 1d ago
OP is specifically talking about the tryhards as they are talking about the top 10%, if anything its an even better sample chud.
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u/PenguinsInvading 1d ago
An incomplete dataset can be detrimental so yes you can't really ignore that fact.
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u/WindWescott 1d ago
Everyone on this subreddit turned into pro players as soon as pro players started saying she was terrible and bad. Suddenly her winrate being massive doesnt matter, her pick rate being massive doesnt matter, and if you have problems with her in any shape or form your the worst player and need to learn how to avoid the area control characters area of control (she is going to take your walker for free)
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u/Abishinzu Violet 1d ago
It's funny though how certain Eternus Players and Meta try-hards who base their entire Deadlock perspnality around Nightshift tier lists, though still absolutely blow a gasket if you dare suggest that she's not the bottom 1 worst character in the game.
Like damn, I wish she was actually anywhere near as bad as certain people keep parroting, because she would actually be high priority to have her 1 and 3 buffed and reworked.
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u/ConceptEvening5364 1d ago
Turns out what Eternus players say is OP doesn’t translate to 99% of the players
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u/firememble 1d ago edited 1d ago
She still has a good winrate in eternus, it's just that she is not picked in night shift other than in niche situations so Vegas and all the other people that make tierlists will say she is trash.
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u/Ok_Usual_3575 1d ago
top players say she’s dogshit because she’s genuinely unplayable in their scrims/tournaments rn and then other players just larp that
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u/56Bagels Sinclair 1d ago
I mean, this is top 10%. It's not exactly Eternus but it's certainly up there in Phantom plus.
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u/Mashaaaaaaaaa Mina 1d ago
Top 10% starts around Oracle 1 I believe.
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u/56Bagels Sinclair 1d ago
I'm looking at a few breakdowns from sites and seeing anywhere between Oracle 1 and Phantom 1 as being top 10%. Generally it's around Oracle 3, I guess?
Still, this isn't Bricklo winrate. It's upper percentile.
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u/Anxious-Meet-6240 1d ago edited 1d ago
it's actually just more like, "turns out people just say random bullshit."
she's strong in every single range you want to select whether narrow or large, including for the best players the only caveat is maybe not organised play... but also let's be real, most of the time when something is broken in pubs, it's also broken in comp, just as an observation across games across time. sometimes it's not but a lot of the times it does translate. imo it's cuz in organised play you need to invest a lot of time to check if something is good, so players are reticent to picking up untested stuff if they can find reasons why it might not be good.
brick/seeker 56%.
emissary/oracly? 57%
phantom/asc? 59%
top 5%? 60%
top 1% 58%.
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u/fannyflapper89 1d ago
For awhile now. Ive had her prio banned for many weeks.
So sick of having to instantly deal with 4 zombies rushing me and a pack of skulls with 2 mile long roots.
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u/shilderyi 1d ago
this character has been beyond broken for quite some times now
just not in eternus lobbies
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u/SmashMouthBreadThrow Viscous 1d ago edited 1d ago
They've all been like this for a while. They're all uninteractive cancer heroes that just vomit shit down the lane, so it's not really that surprising.
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u/Explosionary 1d ago
The large influx of new/returning players are not accustomed to the graves counterplay of pressing q. This characters winrate only goes down as people learn to respect her abilities.
I play a lot of graves and my games pre patch and post patch are night and day. People straight up ignoring skulls again like it's graves release day lol, and this is in oracle lobbies.
I would also argue graves actually has pretty great matchups into a lot of the new characters. She can overwhelm solomon and is pretty good at jumping on him in my experience. Danny really struggles to participate in pve. She's one of the few spirit characters that has no problems breaking ratking shield as skulls damage is split between 6 instances of damage. Baba counters spirit graves but you can go toxic bullets siphon bullets and kill her through her bullshit pretty easily.
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u/decaDecker 1d ago
keep in mind though that winrates don't tell you the full picture, if everyone played just one hero, almost every hero would be close to 50% winrate. graves has a high winrate because she's easy to pick up and hard to mess up on
compare this with someone like shiv who is currently incredibly strong, but his winrate is kinda meh because he has a high skill floor
people who main someone else but play graves every once in a while will still be useful to their team, graves does that much better than anyone else
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u/xyzpqr 1d ago
Bro you wrote a lot of words to say "Graves has a higher win rate because she wins more".
The real reason is there is limited match data, so the reported measures do not characterize the true distribution well.
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u/decaDecker 1d ago
that's an oversimplification
imagine your impact on the team as a quantifiable number, and your skill on that character could be simplified down to how many hours you have on that character
the average might be 3 impact with 10 hours, and 7 impact at 100 hours, 8 impact on 1000 hours
graves would be more like 5 at 10, and 6 at 100, 6.5 at 1000
shiv would be like 3, 5, 9
obviously these numbers are kind of arbitrary and are just used to illustrate the point, but it's much more nuanced than just "this character is strong because they have a high winrate". I agree graves is too strong but she does it in a way that is kind of problematic, she has little to be gained when mastering her so even at her current strength she's very weak at the highest levels of the game. barring any drastic changes I don't ever expect to see a single pro team banning or picking her ever
we have enough match data to kind of tell how strong someone is, thousands of games are more than enough to get a rough estimate, and graves is consistently 55%+
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u/pancak3d 17h ago
This is filtered to top 10% of ranked play though. It filters out low skill / hours.
Graves having 58% WR in top 10% of ranked play is obviously a balance problem.
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u/Mekahippie Wraith 1d ago
This is called a confounding variable and people refuse to believe that this fundamental issue makes data like this unreliable.
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u/zencharm Victor 1d ago
this is also a minuscule sample size considering that the game has 200-300k players and the patch came out yesterday. it’s also worth considering that graves is traditionally one of the lower pick rate heroes in high elo so most players that play her are dedicated mains
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u/NewAnt3365 1d ago
Dedicated mains who run gun builds a lot of the time too. At least from what I see when I watch games when bored. They have the movement to abuse the infinite ammo slide and get away with bum rushing a group with split shot+ricochet(bugged? Where each split shot procs ricochet so you do massive damage) and often use ult to help farm more than push a lane or fight.
So many high elo games aren’t even dealing with the PvE stuff the low elos complain about. And debatably that braindead character is just being made into something higher skilled than most people who complain in this sub play at.
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u/Lycanthoss 1d ago
At least right now I would be a little sceptical of all the win rates in statlocker. Just a few days ago Doorman was like ~80% win rate for like 1-2 days and now suddenly Yamato is in first place for top 1%.
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u/starberryslay Mina 15h ago
my issue with this character is either she does 0 damage to me or I'm dead. Now while this is fine in some cases, sometimes like in that trending clip on twitter a few months ago, ghouls can sometimes just stack up and instakill you. Like I don't think my survivability should ever be this at the mercy of pathfinding especially when said pathfinding is so terrible. And sometimes the deadheads clump together and I can melee them and sometimes they don't. It's a character thats so contingent on a multitude of factors she genuinely plays no part in.
I do think there's still a lot of difference between a good and bad graves, but they're still all at the mercy of random shit like this and it's fun for literally noone
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u/Patron_Mamdani 1d ago
Character with 0 mechanical skill and overtuned numbers ensures even dogwater players contribute. A player who can’t aim or hit their spells on most characters is just useless. Graves is a kit design issue not a balance issue.
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u/mylizard 1d ago
I had an oracle game where we couldn’t end despite a 60k soul lead because of graves. Easiest counter is to comm to your team to suicide dive her. We lost 2 people to kill her but even then we won easily.
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u/zencharm Victor 1d ago
she’s decent in this meta because she gets value from everyone being forced to group up around rift/mid boss. also her zombies might actually hit people now since they updated the ai
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u/NewAnt3365 1d ago
“This patch was released recently. Win rates may appear unusual due to limited match data. Stats will stabilize as more games are played.”
The last time I saw a post like this the day after an update she fell back down to B tier in the top 10% two days later. She just has dedicated one tricks that run down the lobbies quickly and inflate her early winrate.
She’s not a terrible character but she does fall off in higher lobbies when people just aren’t scared of her and know how to handle it.
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