r/Israel • u/Human_Concern263 • 2d ago
The War - News UN panel member admits he, colleagues accused Israel of ‘genocide’ without verifying facts independently
https://www.jns.org/news/world/un-panel-member-admits-he-colleagues-accused-israel-of-genocide-without-verifying-facts-independently203
u/Apprehensive-Cap4840 Italy 2d ago
No way, you're telling me people talk about Israel without knowing what they're blabbing about? Next you'll tell me gays are defending Palestine or something crazy like that!
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u/guywhoeatskolace4565 Czechia. (on a new acc, old one got banned) 2d ago
Because if they actually took the time to research, they'd see that there's no genocide.
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u/Dr_G_E USA 2d ago edited 2d ago
This is outrageous. I'm shocked that they relied on that number of 83% of those killed in the war as being civilians to conclude genocide since that was a misreading of a deliberately ambiguous article in the Guardian that was immediately debunked by the IDF. The Guardian headline was definitely disinformation: "Revealed: Israeli military’s own data indicates civilian death rate of 83% in Gaza war."
Even the text of the article does not make that claim, much less the IDF data. It's hard to believe the error of the Commission was accidental; it was simply an assertion that was too good to fact check. The data presented actually shows that 17% of the (exaggerated) number of dead reported by Hamas represent named, identified, and targeted terrorists confirmed killed or probably killed by Israel. Many more than that 17% consists of unidentified combatants, those not personally targeted, and those killed but not confirmed dead by Israel.
The IDF denied this spurious accusation and reiterated its findings the same day the Guardian published that erroneous percentage of civilians killed:
"IDF denies report claiming that its own database found that vast majority of Gaza dead were civilians:" https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-denies-report-claiming-that-its-own-database-found-that-vast-majority-of-gaza-dead-were-civilians/
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u/eyl569 1d ago
The data presented actually shows that 17% of the (exaggerated) number of dead reported by Hamas represent named, identified, and targeted terrorists confirmed killed or probably killed by Israel.
AFAIR they don't have to be reported by Hamas or targeted to be counted. There does need to be some sort of intelligence identifying them with a certain level of confidence.
But the other side is that regardless of identification, not all combatanats are in the database in the first place. It only included members of Hamas and PIJ (so combatants who are members of other organizations or unaffiliated wouldn't be in it) and probably wasn't completely comprehensive to begin with (it's not like Israel can get a membership list from Hamas) and wouldn't include more recent recruits, of which there are thousands.
This is assuming that the data is even correct, it comes from a single uncorroberated article based on anonymous sources.
But this is interesting:
The 83% statistic has been debunked widely. The audience member asked Sidoti whether the commission independently verified it.
“No. We didn’t, because we don’t have that information,” Sidoti said. “We literally don’t know, nor does the IDF know.”
The whole point of the Guardian article was that this was based on IDF data - that is, that the IDF knew that 83% of the casualties were civilians. If Sidoti thinks that even the IDF doesn't know for sure, then where is the data even coming?
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u/lostcir 2d ago
Obviously they will be fired for incompitence, right? RIGHT???
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u/ZZZZapperr 2d ago
They will probably get bonuses. Such is the state of the UN. Rotten from top to bottom.
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u/Human_Concern263 2d ago
Chris Sidoti, a member of the United Nations Commission of Inquiry on Israel and the Palestinians, admitted last week that the U.N. panel reported that Israel intended to commit “genocide” in Gaza even though the commission never collected direct evidence to that effect.
Even if Israel aimed to destroy Hamas, it could still be using “genocide” as a strategy to that end, he claimed.Proving genocidal intent is “a very, very high test,” which is “higher than the criminal standard of beyond reasonable doubt,” Sidoti said at the event.
The U.N. panel member told attendees that “if we accept that the goal of the Israeli authorities in Gaza has been the destruction of Hamas, that does not preclude the possibility of genocide being the strategy by which their goal is going to be attained.”The U.N. panel’s conclusion that Israel was guilty of “genocide”—a charge which the Jewish state has repeatedly denied—was based on evidence on “reasonable grounds,” which is “not a high standard,” Sidoti said.
“We are not a court,” he told attendees. “We are not even prosecutors. We are an investigative body.”
The Genocide Convention requires specific intent, or dolus specialis in Latin, to destroy a group at least in part for a finding of genocide.Navi Pillay, an anti-Israel activist and former chair of the commission who won a Nobel Prize last week, told a German newspaper that the panel “essentially worked like a court” with “all the instruments of the separation of powers.”
“Every fact was verified by us,” she told the paper.The U.N. panel has said the International Court of Justice, the principal judicial arm of the global body which is based in The Hague, “put all States on notice of the plausibility of the State of Israel committing genocide.”
Cox played an audio clip of a former president of the court, Joan Donoghue, who said in a television interview that the court, which she led at the time, never ruled that the claim of “genocide” against Israel was plausible.
“Our paragraph is entirely consistent with then-President Donoghue’s comments,” Sidoti told attendees.Sidoti said at the event that the panel does “not come to conclusions unless we ourselves have conducted an investigation.”
An audience member suggested otherwise.
The attendee noted that the U.N. panel claimed that 83% of Gazans killed in the war were civilians, which the commission took as evidence that Israel targets Palestinian civilians “deliberately.”
The 83% statistic has been debunked widely. The audience member asked Sidoti whether the commission independently verified it.
“No. We didn’t, because we don’t have that information,” Sidoti said. “We literally don’t know, nor does the IDF know.”
Full debate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlw_z5TdcoM
Clips: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/2109734976145223968.html
More mistakes: https://unwatch.org/un-commission-of-inquiry-member-chris-sidoti-challenged-on-gaza-genocide-findings-in-melbourne-debate/
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u/ZZZZapperr 2d ago
Make this go viral. Make sure lawyers see this. This proves that the UN deliberately engaged in defamation. This means the UN can be sued by the victims of antisemitism because the UN's lies caused attacks against Jews and property damage as well. The UN and everyone who uttered those lies should be forced to pay compensation to the victims of antisemitic hate crimes.
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u/Significant_Pepper_2 2d ago
No one will listen to this because it's outside of their echo chamber. And the sources that jumped on all that genocide bandwagon will ignore it or have a small article buried somewhere.
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u/ZZZZapperr 1d ago
This is not meant to convince antisemites. This is about holding UN officials accountable using the legal system.
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u/anon755qubwe 1d ago edited 1d ago
The legal system is already ideologically captured.
There will be no accountability unless the entire institutional structure collapses and is abolished
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u/ChocCooki3 Australia 1d ago
None of the pro Hamas will care.
Anyone with half a brain would know the ICJ hasn't made its ruling.. so for someone of her standing to make sure a huge statement when she doesn't have the authority to.. is stupid.
No similar to Danny Crane saying someone is guilty without a judge final verdict.
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u/ZZZZapperr 1d ago
This isn't about convincing the pro-Hamas people. This is about holding UN officials accountable using the legal system.
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u/DC_Lavman 2d ago
They make broad pronunciations in public and then make excuses about burdens and standards in private. There is a reason why real courts do not issue public statements about their cases before, during, or after judgment. These are not even fake courts. They are naked political actors who debase the rule of law by pretending otherwise.
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u/mofodave Canada 2d ago
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u/conscientious_seesaw 🇮🇱Israeli-Canadian🇨🇦 2d ago
Well yeah, it's the only way someone could ever come to that conclusion
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u/Girl_with_the_Curl USA 2d ago
The problem with a headline/article like this, is it won't find the audience that actually needs to see it. Though next time I see someone talking about the "genocide" that everyone in here knows isn't happening, I'll be happy to share this link.
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u/MrBuckBuck Someone else might have gotten it wrong 2d ago
They cannot verify those facts, when facts dictate there is no genocide.
No matter how much they lie.
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u/mikropower8 2d ago
They are accusing Israel to commit a genocide ... they claim that they are a "investigative body", but they are doing in this research a very bad job. This is on the same level like this people, which are watching a 30 seconds tiktok video and think that they are now the guardians of the truth.
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u/Swimming_Care7889 1d ago
Much too little, much too late. The damage done to Jews globally is complete and ongoing.
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u/HutiyaBanda India 1d ago
And a Nobel was given for that!
Everyone praising her, don’t know about her report on Israel or else there would a storm on the SM
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