r/TopCharacterTropes • u/KusanagiGundam • 15d ago

Hated Tropes (Hated Trope) "Kind" slave owners

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Speaking as an American who has studied the civil war all throughout my school years, this trope infuriates me to no end. There is no such thing as a kind slave master because slavery itself is cruel and inhumane. PEOPLE ARE NOT PROPERTY!

Naofumi (Shield Hero): Prime example of this trope. He enslaves multiple (underage) girls and an whole village and the fans still say he's a hero.

Rudeus (Jobless Reincarnation): As if being a pedo wasn't bad enough he had to buy a slave in season 2. Worse is that people still defend his actions.

Song of The South (Disney): Possibly the OG example of this trope. And the reason why Disney will never release it again.

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u/sisdom-weeker 15d ago

https://giphy.com/gifs/Fkg6fI0hsngIM
Harry Potter inherits Kreacher the house elf from Sirius and treats him "nicely" (and one of the last thoughts he has in Deathly Hallows is that he wants Kreacher to make him a sandwich)

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u/bisexualboy38 15d ago

The house elf situation was always a mess, we just didn't pick up on it as kids.

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u/sisdom-weeker 15d ago

Poor worldbuilding all around, it would have been better if either "only proper bastards like the Malfoys own them" or "eventually everyone realizes how fucked up wizard slavery is and realizes Hermione is right"

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u/DragonWisper56 15d ago

that or just have the heroes should just employ the elves.

even if you want the elves to have quirky relationship with employment, you could have them be paid in socks or something

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u/award_winning_writer 14d ago

Except the books spend a depressingly large amount of text establishing that most elves want to be enslaved and find the thought of being freed unbearable, with Dobby just being an odd exception. After Winky is freed she gets hired just like Dobby but instead of working she spends all her time lazing about, getting drunk, and wallowing in self pity.

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u/Irish_Whiskey 14d ago

After Winky is freed she gets hired just like Dobby but instead of working she spends all her time lazing about, getting drunk, and wallowing in self pity.

The exact same argument that slaveowners made for why they shouldn't be forced to give up slaves.

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u/Pecuthegreat 14d ago

I feel like people be reading too into this. They are clearly not supposed to be allegories to real humans.

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u/DragonWisper56 14d ago edited 14d ago

I mean when our very first interactions with them was doby not wanting to be a slave , and the whole plotline of SPEW It's kinda hard to see it.

Iike nothing actually forced JK to make them all slaves she could have easily just say the ones in hogwarts were freed and just worked their.

edit: I also know she's playing with the whimsical nature of brownies but I feel like there were other more intereasting ways of doing it

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u/Orion_starborn 14d ago

I once saw someone say that Terry Pratchett would have done it much much better, basically he would likely have the house elves as aggressive servants (I can't think of a better word) like if you're not at the table at 8 sharp for breakfast all hell would break loose or if you dare walk on their grass you'll be led up in the infirmary

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u/ukezi 14d ago

Pratchett had the golems, animated constructs that are built to need an owner though the magic words in their head.

Then inside one of the books it's figured out you can just stick their deed next to the magic words and then they own themselves.

The first free golem then works hard to buy and free the next golem, and so on.

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u/Yorokobe_Shounen69 14d ago

Feet of clay, right?

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u/ukezi 14d ago

Introduced in feet of clay, but expanded upon in going postal, making money and raising steam.

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u/Pecuthegreat 14d ago

I mean, I do agree with you. The house elves are clearly based off brownies and kitchen goblins so they could have been made more into employees than slaves which would be closer to the original myth.

Don't know why she decided going with slavery was better when it could just be that that Draco's family was turning legal employees into defacto slaves.

I just think going with the real life comparison maybe stretching authorial intent.

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u/DragonWisper56 14d ago

to be honest I have no idea what her intent was. I don't think she intended to say slavery was good but making Hermione a misinformed activist makes it sound like it.

Like I get her intent but she seems to have gone about in perhaps the worst possible way

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u/Bloodyjorts 14d ago

There's also the fact that I think it may have been a somewhat tortured allegory for 'house wives', as one of the oldest women's rights organizations in Industrial England was the Society for Promoting the Employment of Women, or...SPEW.

[SPEW still operates today, though they rebranded as 'Futures for Women'.]

As you said, I kinda get her intent, I just don't think it was executed as well as it could have been. I think she was trying to do too much (house wife allegory + brownie folk tales + lampooning misinformed activism + "Wizarding World is kinda fucked up, actually" + racism + slavery + normalization of messed up shit, told through the eyes of a kid whose really going through it right now, all in a book meant for children).

I do think there was some interesting dynamics going on with Sirius and Kreacher, how Sirius's need to separate himself from his racist pureblood family causes him to lash out and take out his anger on Kreacher (in part because Sirius himself is emotionally stunted and immature due to his spending a decade plus in prison), even the kids were kind of shocked at how badly Sirius treated him, and Kreacher found ways to betray Sirius because of this.

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u/lolajet 13d ago

Considering that she doesn't seem to have that good of an opinion of women (regardless of how she likes to portray herself), that S.P.E.W. parallel makes a depressing amount of sense

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u/Z0eTrent 14d ago

You get her intent but you have no idea what her intent was?

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u/howboutthemapples 14d ago

The thing about authorial intent with JKR, and in fact everything about her and her views, is that she can sometimes have a decent idea but is fundamentally incapable of thinking about it deeply.

Magic isn't about memorization or reading, it has to do with emotions and intent!..but I need to have the kids do homework. It'll be fine if I never ever go into detail about what that looks like.

The central theme of my series should be that love and courage are the most important things of all!..but I also want the stories to be mysteries, so the solutions to the issues the characters face will be solved with loopholes (Lily's love for Harry), plot holes (a lot of things, Moody comes to mind), and, for some reason, riddles and logic puzzles (the Deathly Hallows)

I should have a wizarding sport, and flying is a fun idea!..but it is absolutely imperative that the rules make no goddamn sense whatsoever.

People can have issues with their sense of self and should pursue what makes them happy!..but I have personally been assaulted by a man, so trans women must all be fakers.

Oops, something may have slipped in there. Apologies; I just get a little riled up when I think about how people fund the dissolution of my and my loved ones' rights and lives. Silly me.

(To be clear, this was only in regards to JKR's abilites and proclivities as an author; I wasn't suggesting you had said anything about her ethics or yours re: human rights)

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u/Irish_Whiskey 14d ago

I agree they aren't intended to be "allegories" but they are treated as sentient beings functionally the same as humans in the story. Dobby is not portrayed as 'subhuman' and unworthy of empathy.

The problem with Rowling's moral lessons in the books is that she writes a lot of social evils and political messages in there... but the conclusion for all of them is "Well it's just bad people that are the problem, not bad systems." And that's teaching some really messed up lessons to kids.

Harry and his friends range in attitude from "slavery is fine" to "Well it could be better, but it's not a big deal. We should just be nice to them about it." Because Rowling wanted a magical slave system in her book (not inherently bad to include) but didn't want to have the main characters tear down systems or call out how morally complicit the 'good guys' running it are.

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u/PhranticPenguin 12d ago

Won't anybody think of the children in my fictional media!?

Harry Potter is corrupting my children to be okay with slavery of elves! :(( my kids need every moral lesson spelled out for them >:(

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u/Irish_Whiskey 12d ago

Yes, how dare people in "TopCharacterTropes" discuss characters in fictional media.

I can see from your responses that you are offended and upset by discussion of this particular series/author that is critical. If you would like to be honest about why, I can respond to you. Otherwise I recommend you take your binky and retreat to a safe space.

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u/PhranticPenguin 12d ago

Nothing offended or upset lmao. I'm just mocking your ridiculous opinion.

It is ridiculous to try and sanitize every series that has slavery or any other taboo topic. The entire point of fiction is to explore different ideas. Those ideas do not need to be sanitized and childsafe disney-fied.

Not all stories need to be the rebels upending systems of evil oppression and saving the princess or even have some kind of moral lesson to protect children their 'fragile' 'weak' minds. Critical thinking can be learned precisely from imperfect stories.

You're trying exactly to create a safe space with your response, need a mirror and a pacifier to go?

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u/Irish_Whiskey 12d ago

I'm just mocking your ridiculous opinion.

You did not. You whined "won't something think of the characters in fictional media!" That's mocking the triviality of the discussion, not the substance of why it's wrong. Which would be completely reasonable to do if we were in a subreddit about the history of war crimes, and not... discussing character tropes.

It is ridiculous to try and sanitize every series that has slavery or any other taboo topic. 

Not a thing I said or suggested in the slightest. I don't know if this is more bad faith making things up, like when you suggested I ban the books and hit my kids, or you're that illiterate.

 or even have some kind of moral lesson to protect children their 'fragile' 'weak' minds.

But it does have a moral lessons. It is filled with them in blunt ways. It is a story about a boy overthrowing a group of 'blood purists' who seize control of government and media, that regularly stops to discuss racism, feminism and class issues.

The problem we're having here is that you agree with some message of the author and I don't. But you're far too much of a coward to say that, and instead make bad faith arguments that discussion of the books message is itself bad.

You're trying exactly to create a safe space with your response, need a mirror and a pacifier to go?

If you can't think of a coherent insult, don't just try to copy the last one you heard.

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u/Siria110 14d ago

Well, the goblins are literaly jewish stereotypes, werewolfs alegory for AIDS, so...

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u/DragonWisper56 14d ago

I meant from a out of universe prospective. making the saves get depressed after not being slaves is really icky

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u/Total-Explanation208 14d ago

Icky but disturbingly accurate. A lot of times when you get what you want you suddenly don't know what to do anymore. This isn't defending the bad things that are happening, but acknowledging that it isn't just sunshine and rainbows when the bad things stop. Just look at all the people who spend retirement sitting around watching tv.

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u/DragonWisper56 14d ago

you know what I mean. Harry Potter doesn't put any effort into dealing with what fredom is like after leaving a very restrictive situation( Shawshank Redemption actually does this really well) but is more using it as way to show that the slaves "like being slaves"

it's just her clumsy attempt at fixing a plot hole

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u/PablomentFanquedelic 14d ago

Prediction: HBO is gonna resolve this with Winky becoming a trad elf influencer and showing Dobby the error of his ways

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u/Aluxanatomy 14d ago

"Dobby, let me show you this crystal ball program by Charlemagne Kirkius.

... Wait, did his neck always do that??"

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u/whereismymind86 14d ago

which is like...a REALLY common apologist trope used by old racists. That they did the slaves a mercy by bringing them to a glorious new land, and "saving them" by introducing them to christianity, and teaching them new skills they wouldn't have learned if they were free and unemployed back in their homelands.

In retrospect, coupled with the portrayal of the goblins...it really shouldn't have come as a surprise that Rowling was a bad person...

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u/Uypsilon 14d ago

Which literally does happen in Hogwartz? They do own a lot of house elves, but also do employ elves who want to be employed.

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u/DragonWisper56 14d ago

I mean from a out of universe standpoint.

why did she write it to were they want to be slaves when she would easily have them just be employees

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u/SerKnightGuy 14d ago

As a kid I kinda took it as dark social commentary. "Getting rid of the occasional would-be genocidal dictator is one thing. Dismantling the ancient institution of slavery is another."

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u/zoltronzero 14d ago

Rowling is not that good of a writer.

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u/Aluxanatomy 14d ago

It was lightning in a bottle. There are so many better things that have come along since then which built on her ideas and made them better.

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u/Orphan_Guy_Incognito 14d ago

The sad reality is that it's not commentary, its genuinely how she thinks.

In her view the problem isn't a systemic issue, it is bad actors. Harry becomes a wizard cop working for an institution that was easily coopted by wizard Hitler, in much the same way that one of the protagonists of the Fantastic Beast series goes back to work for the same American magic society that tried to execute her without trial or even meaningful investigation.

One of the undersold things in the book is that the Death Eaters are propped up by a bunch of oppressed magical creatures (goblins in particular) who have every right to be pissed off at being second class citizens. This is never addressed.

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u/award_winning_writer 14d ago edited 14d ago

There are several points in the books where it's noted that non-humans (elves, centaurs, giants, etc.) are generally treated as lesser lifeforms by most of wizarding society and that maybe someone should do something about that... oh, but not Harry, he has no stake in that struggle, why should he care?

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u/Irish_Whiskey 14d ago edited 14d ago

are generally treated as lesser lifeforms by most of wizarding society

More specifically, they are confirmed to be criminalized and FORCED into a lessor status by things like criminal punishments if they pick up a wand.

The statue at the center of the Ministry of Magic has a male wizard standing proudly up as a women clutches to him for protection, as they stand atop a pile of 'lesser races' below their feet.

This is the same Ministry that Rowling later decides is fine existing as is. It only got corrupted through mind control and not because they fundamentally agree with Voldemort, and once Harry and Hermione get jobs there nothing major needs to change.

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u/FancyKetchup96 14d ago

The original statue was the other magical races looking up in awe at the witch and wizard. In Deathly Hallows it was replaced with a witch and wizard sitting on a throne supported by the bodies of muggles.

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u/Irish_Whiskey 12d ago

I'll just quote them both here for reference for anyone wondering.

The first statute:

Tallest of them all was a noble-looking wizard with his wand pointing straight up in the air. Grouped around him were a beautiful witch, a centaur, a goblin, and a house-elf. The last three were all looking adoringly up at the witch and wizard. 

The second statute.

It was rather frightening, this vast sculpture of a witch and wizard sitting on ornately carved thrones...Engraved in foot-high letters at the base of the statue were the words MAGIC IS MIGHT...Harry looked more closely and realised that what he had thought were decoratively carved thrones were actually mounds of carved humans: hundreds and hundreds of naked bodies, men, women, and children, all with rather stupid, ugly faces, twisted and pressed together to support the weight of the handsomely robed wizards."

It says a lot that Rowling had to emphasize that they were naked children with ugly faces, to really reinforce THIS ONE IS BAD AND EVIL. It's also a really stupid design.

At their core it's the same concept, of Wizards on top and 'lessor races' under them. But the Magic is Might statue is just redone to have a big "I AM EVIL" sign and makes the subjects muggles instead of magical creatures.

After Voldemort is defeated they stick the original statue back with no one having a problem with it. It was wrong when he did it with Muggles, but magical creatures are lesser than Wizards so that's fine.

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u/Alagore 14d ago

To be fair to Harry, for the vast majority of the events of the novels he is under the age of 18 and being personally targeted by a terrorist and said terrorist's organization, including being attacked regularly since he was 11. I'm not sure to what extent I would blame someone in the same situation in real life for having a similar monofocus when it comes to societal issues. 

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u/Old-Tip-69 14d ago

Also, most of us are doing a lot less than Harry towards the actual shit going on in the real world. 

Like harry is not a bad character or person because he isnt running around upending every wizarding rule and norm of a place he was never from

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u/nowTHATSakatana1999 11d ago

People give Harry waaaay too much shit, I get JK sucks but it feels like the pendulum around the books’ reception has swung too far the other way and now because the author is an asshole it’s okay to treat the books in bad faith over literally every minute detail.

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u/Pencilshaved 14d ago

It is explicitly stated repeatedly that only humans have the privilege of using actual real wands for their magic (Hagrid’s magic umbrella wasn’t just a quirky choice, it was the only way he could use magic), and all nonhuman races are grouped into either “beasts” or “beings”, determined almost entirely by their ability to understand and integrate into human society. (Even “beings” are still second-class citizens though)

The only meaningful difference between Voldemort’s ideology and the status quo is that he wanted non-pure humans to be moved to the other side of the “actual person / just a ‘being’” divide. He just likes killing people about it.

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u/Alagore 14d ago

Hagrid's umbrella contains the remnants of his wand, which was destroyed after he was expelled. So he's not a good example. 

I think that goblins are an explicit example however. 

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u/Ergast 14d ago

What I got from the whole wand thing is that it is the equivalent of magic "tech" developed by wizards and witches, so they kinda have the right to do whatever they want with it.

And goblins are a bad example, they sure as hell don't share their magic items crafting techniques, or any of their secrets, and their idea of "selling" something is to rent it for as long as the "buyer" is alive.

The world of Harry Potter is fucked up beyond measure, but I don't think the wands are the biggest problem, or big at all.

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u/Old-Tip-69 14d ago

Tbf to Harry, he is both a child and gor a lot of shit on his plate

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u/Hot_Fee1881 9d ago

The latter books even make this almost comical, because the Order of the Phoenix is all like, “Voldemort is winning over the lesser species by promising them freedom and equality! How could we possibly combat this?”

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u/Reasonable_Bonus8575 14d ago

I mean, the wizards already got mindrape magic in multiple different flavors, if there was one line in the epilogue talking about ‘breaking the happy elf slave curse’ there literally wouldn’t be a problem.

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u/Anaevya 15d ago

It would've been better, if they were like folklore elves. Insult them and they leave.

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u/crescentmoonrising 14d ago

House Elves are pretty clearly based on Brownies (including the clothes thing) but if you tried to mistreat Brownies they would wreak your house, then leave.

Everything in the Harry Potter books is either folklore, mythology or British stuff (particularly boarding school culture).

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u/A_Town_Called_Malus 14d ago

And if she had just kept the folklore as it was, it would actually make the story with Dobby better.

Because then you have the Malfoys trapping and enslaving a magical creature via some curse, which is highlighting that the slavery itself, regardless of any other abuse, is still evil and unnatural.

So the change that Rowling explicitly made to the elves compared to their inspiration weakened her story right from the beginning.

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u/Temeraire64 14d ago

And then you could have Lucius get away with it because the Ministry won’t take the testimony of a house elf seriously.

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u/A_Town_Called_Malus 12d ago

Yep. It would be saying slavery is wrong, the Malfoys own slaves and so are immoral for that (on top of their other stuff), and there is a problem in the wizarding world where they can get away with it because money, power, magical creatures having less rights etc. Whereas with how it is actually written, the Malfoys aren't immoral for owning a slave, only for abusing it as if the very concept of owning a living, sapient, sentient being is not inherently abuse in the first place.

Then our heroes can point out that the mindset of "people with magic who are born to non-magical parents are lesser than those with one or two magical parents" is an obvious extension of the mindset that "non-human magical beings are lesser, literally sub-human" that already exists in the law of the wizarding world. Blood supremacists are just taking the existing framework and moving one group of people from the human to the sub-human group. The underlying belief isn't really any different to anyone who thinks that house elfs and goblins should not be allowed to use wands, the blood supremacists just have a smaller definition of who fits the legal criteria of "allowed wand".

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u/Temeraire64 12d ago

Although I like to imagine in this universe the Malfoys would still suffer a little, because the house elves hear Dobby's story and refuse to work for them (maybe even harass them a little, like brownies in folklore did to those who disrespected them). Meaning they have to learn how to do their own housework.

Also if Draco took part in Dobby's abuse, he may not have a great time at Hogwarts considering all the many, many house elves there.

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u/Pecuthegreat 14d ago

Which makes it weirder that she made them slaves instead of like, hired maids.

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u/crescentmoonrising 14d ago

Yeah, part of the folklore is that you have to leave the brownies some sort of offering (often food or milk) as payment. You never want to upset/offend Fey creatures.

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u/Egathentale 14d ago

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't house elves essentially co-dependent on wizards? As in wizards giving them some of their nebulous "magic" for services rendered, and since it has been going on for generations, they are so dependent on the system that they don't even consider any alternatives, and it's why most of them are so hostile to shaking the status quo.

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u/lolajet 13d ago

Except there's nothing in the series that indicates that house elves get anything out of working for wizards outside of apparently liking being slaves

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u/Egathentale 14d ago

Maybe this is just fanon, or I'm misremembering, but aren't House Elves explicity brownies that effectively developed an unhealthy co-dependence with wizards over the centuries?

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u/nowTHATSakatana1999 11d ago

I’m not that deep in Potter lore, at worst they’ve got an alien mindset and it’s offensive to project human morals and ideals onto them.

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u/Paranormasight-Fic 14d ago

I mean, there were a couple of cases like this (granted, very very sparse) like Kreacher betraying Sirius because of the constant mistreatment, or the Hogwarts elves refusing to clean the Gryffindor dorms because Hermione kept trying to ambush them with unwanted freedom by leaving socks all around the dorms (which sounds weird out of context)

But I get what you’re saying. It would’ve been better if the elves were more inspired by the folklore elves.

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u/SorowFame 14d ago

Thing is, “only proper bastards own them” was basically how it was in Chamber of Secrets, the Malfoys were evil because they owned a slave, then later books went back and tried to act like it was normal for some reason.

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u/ArisenGodEmperor13 14d ago

And if JK wanted them to have elven servants, just had them be paid or just don't bring focused on it and especially talking about freeing them

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u/Nero_2001 14d ago

Terry Prachet did the whole servant race thing so much better with the Igors. They are a race that works at servants but people actually treat the Igors with respect because of their surgery and body crafting. People in Überwald actually considere it the polite thing to do to help out an Igor if they ask for help.

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u/kithas 14d ago

Using the proper household spirits from English Folklore that inspired the elves would be better, as the Brownies help because they want and offerings (food and stuff, but not salary) must be made so not to offend them.

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u/Viridun 14d ago

It's so weird because they're clearly meant to be a spin on brownies, who are folktale creatures that help humans in secret with chores and tasks, but get offended and leave if they're acknowledged or paid. She could have given the house elves an entirely alternate economy, could have made them 'helpful spirits' not actually bound labour.

Dobby could have been an outlier loophole that the Malfoys hid from people.

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u/bisexualboy38 15d ago

Exactly.

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u/MrSunshine92 14d ago

Or make them magical beings that just go into wizard households and clean them in exchange for gifts/because they like it. And over the generations them developed relationships and preferences with their households like Kreacher and the Blacks. Have some wizards dislike them for nonconsenualy cleaning up their ordered mess. Make the reason the weaslys doesn't have one be that an ancestor pissed them of/ insulted them accidentally.

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u/whahoppen314 14d ago

I swear it was always Hermione *was* right its just that it was such a tightly knitted mess that it was like arguing with a brick wall

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u/sisdom-weeker 14d ago

She's basically treated as having her heart in the right place but being too "naive" about what the slaves actually want

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u/Pecuthegreat 14d ago

Hey man, Wizard culture is just different and you have to respect it.

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u/Jagvetinteriktigt 15d ago

People do realize that Hermione was right...just not in the way you'd think. It's all not written that clearly lol.

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u/SexualPie 14d ago

oh no bad world building on harry potter? who''da thunk

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u/Just-Antelope-8069 14d ago

Don't forget how they treat the goblins, I can't not side with the villain from Hogwarts Legacy.

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u/Ordo_Liberal 14d ago

Hard disagree. It adds a character flaw to the heroes just like in real life

George Washington is both a freedom fighter liberal and a slave owner. Both things can be true.

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u/DragonWisper56 14d ago

But they don't really do anything with it. they definitely wanted herminone to see misguided but never really seemed protray out characters as complicit in slavery.

it could be a cool story but that's not really how the book shows it