Custodes stratagem use query

[u/Crammothy]

Swift Ruin is an ability on the datasheet of the Venatari custodians that allows the unit to use Rapid Ingress for -1 CP, and also does not count towards any other uses of the Rapid Ingress stratagem in that phase. Leonine Ferocity is an enhancement in the Lions of the Emperor detachment that can be given to a Shield Captain in Allarus Terminator Armour. The wording for Leonine Ferocity is exactly the same as Swift Ruin.

Can Swift Ruin, and the Leonine Ferocity enhancement (both do the same thing) be used in the same phase to allow you to rapid ingress 3 units (a Venatari unit, the Allarus unit with the Leonine Ferocity enhancement, and a third unit using Rapid ingress the usual way)?

Both Swift Ruin and Leonine Ferocity are functionally the same and both are limited to one per phase per army. Speaking to my local group has had mixed response to this as it is unclear what the (Once per phase, per army) and (Once per phase, per unit) conditions actually mean? It's a little confusing because you are using each ability only once, it's just that both abilities have the same outcome.

Can anyone point to a ruling that would make this more clear? Thank you.

[u/Calamitous_J]

You cam use both, theyre different abilities

[u/Thewhimsicalsteve]

Yes, you can do a Swift, a Lion, and a normal rapid ingress. They all have different names which is the important thing when using abilities.

As for Once per phase per unit vs Once per phase per army. That is there as a keyword. Once per phase per army means it can be used in the entire army only once. While Once per phase per unit it can be used by any unit that has that ability, it also covers abilities that could potentially keep being reused if it lacked that clause.

[u/Crammothy → u/Thewhimsicalsteve]

Do you have a source you can link me too for that clarification please? I've been looking for it but i've not been able to locate anything so far. Thank you.

[u/LordDanish → u/Crammothy]

The ability is the source.

[u/Thewhimsicalsteve → u/Crammothy]

Source for what statement? One, two, or both?

[u/RandomMagus]

(Once per phase, per army) and (Once per phase, per unit) are specific to the exact ability being used, doesn't matter if it has the same effect as some other ability, it has to be the same ability

If it's per army then you can use the ability exactly one time per phase, no matter how many units have it. If it's per unit, then every unit with the ability can use it every phase where it's valid (i.e. if it says "during your movement phase" it can be every unit that has that ability, but only during your own movement phase)

Nothing restricts using two different abilities that are both once per phase, they don't interact with each other

[u/STtmF]

They are differently named abilities, it does not matter that they functionally do the same thing, you can use both abilities together.

The more important question is: how can you charge anything you want instead of what the enemy offers if you put 3 (of your probably 4-5 units) in reserve to rapid.

[u/jacanced → u/STtmF]

remember, ingress lets you move after coming in, and we're looking at 7in move on the termies, 12 with fly on the venatarii, with the katah option to move through enemy units, and if you take solar watch, get +2 move

[u/STtmF → u/jacanced]

Proper spacing when the opponent knows whats happening gives him 8" distance to target +1" spacing cause your base is too fat+8" behind screening unit+1"( estimated base size of the screening unit)+8" front screening. Thats 26" before substracting any "dents" in the screening bubble but also positions you cant halt after movement due to the engagement range of the screening unit. Solar watch katah + venatatari ist 14" unhindered movement which still puts you just outside 12" to target. Ive done triple ingress with double venatari all day with the 10th codex and found enough good players that still managed to curb its potential. Now that were lacking the bricks to slaughter the screens first without trading real bad, putting so many points in deniable reserve isnt feasable in my opinion.

[u/Good-Sir5821]

I dont think you can do that? Not because the names are different, but because the triggering is all the same. Rapid Ingress is at the end of the movement phase, I dont believe you can have that trigger happen three times at the end of the same movement phase. Maybe that's not the case in 11th, im not sure.

[u/corrin_avatan → u/Good-Sir5821]

There would be no reason for the sequencing rules to exist if it wasnt possible to have multiple effects off the same trigger/timing.

What you are thinking of is the ruling GW made that you can't trigger multiple Reactive Moves off the same condition, which they then provided w FAQ that limited you to only being able to make a single Normal Move per phase

The community has falsely turned that into "you can't have multiple triggers off the same event" which is just wrong and ignores the fact thst the Sequencing rules tell you that this is possible and it is why sequencing exists.

And again, what would the point be of saying "if doesn't count towards your limit of usages of the stratagem" be if you couldn't use the strat?

[u/Good-Sir5821 → u/corrin_avatan]

Fair enough. That makes sense. Not always the most clear, I am obviously one of that community.