r/classicwow • u/GetShroomy • 2h ago
Forever Forever Open qualifiers: class matchups from the first 2,000 matches
Here's the class matchup grid from the Forever Open qualifiers so far, built from the Raider.IO results. That's 2,000 of roughly 4,900 matches, so it will still move. Read it across: the class on the left against the class on top. The last column is each class against everyone.
Live version, updated every 15 minutes: lifeonazeroth.com (Forever Open tab). It also has spec win rates, winning talents, the talent trees everyone entered with, the current top 4 of each class, and every player with their record, spec and match history, searchable.
Some things that stand out:
- Warlocks are on top at 63%, just ahead of Paladins at 62%. That's not what the open-world duels I posted earlier showed: there, Hunters and Paladins had the best records and Warlocks were at 54%. But that same data showed Warlocks were the class that beat the top duelists most often, and that matches what's happening here.
- Hunters dropped the most, from 63% of the open-world duels I saw to 46% here.
- Druids went the other way, from 37% to 51%.
- Demonology is the best spec at 67%. 89% of Warlocks play it, and three out of four Warlocks entered with the exact same build, 5/21/0.
My guess at why: Paladins and Hunters are easier to play consistently, so they win a lot of everyday duels. Warlocks are harder but have a higher ceiling, and a tournament is full of players who can reach it.
Note: I'll make another post with the final grid once the qualifiers are over, unless I've fallen asleep by then. Either way the site will have the final numbers. Posting it now because there is a good chance I might fall asleep, toddler parenting is great but drains you.
Update: Just as I finished writing this post I see that the updated grid now has Paladins on top, a fierce race.
•
u/Richard_TM 1h ago
What's up with that Druid v Shaman matchup??
•
u/rogbog22 1h ago
Shaman can strip off your hots and earth shock you (at distance) if you attempt to hard cast something.
•
u/Richard_TM 1h ago
Makes sense. I only ever played Horde in vanilla/era, so I wasn't fully aware of the nightmare that shaman would be for my druid.
•
u/rogbog22 1h ago
I'm jealous, I still can't even pick what I want to play beyond "maybe a hybrid" lol.
•
u/Zarghan_0 1h ago
Warlock being #1 is no surprise. But mages being so weak certainly is after all the complaining people have done about them.
•
u/RodChainFurlongAcre 1h ago
Take this as a lesson to stop listening to anyone complaining about classes in this sub. 99% of players here are sub par players at best and their judgement on balance should not ever be trusted.
It's popular to shit on streamers, but lo and behold, most streamers have a better grasp of what is good and what isn't and could make these calls before the tourney started.
•
u/alowlyrandom 9m ago
At level 30 mage is very weak. No ice barrier, biggest mana dependant class with pretty bad pvp mana pool and sustain low level, and mage gear options don't make as big a difference as other classes at that point, especially with resist gear available but not spellpen. Mage significantly better later on and in open pvp/team fights.
•
u/InZomnia365 21m ago
Their damage potential is strong. But very dependent on procs. It makes sense they only win vs pure melee classes like rogue and warrior, because everyone else have ways to break, interrupt, or pushback casts, and you don't have Ice Barrier to deal with it.
•
u/Prettybroki 1h ago
this such a small sample size, i saw a player playing with controller couldnt even kite i wouldnt trust this number
•
u/ChangeFatigue 1h ago
Locks have always dumpstered mages in classic through wotlk, and if locks are rising to the top, any mage with a winning record will run into them.
I’m assuming pairings are done off record, same as like a TCG tournament.
•
u/alowlyrandom 6m ago
Through tbc absolutely, but I wrecked every lock in wotlk without trouble. Mages heavily outscaled locks in pvp with gear 1v1 and in arena when their kit was properly utilized.
•
u/Kudosforkodos 1h ago
They got nerfed Thursday
25% damage nerf to ice lance (which is what people were complaining about)
•
u/demon_soulz 1h ago
So were you living under a rock until today? Because the narrative, even after the ice lance nerf, was that mage was actually stronger, because Blizzard loves streamers and wanted mage to win.
•
u/Tylo_Ren2 1h ago
I don’t think people said they were stronger after the patch just salty that mage gets more attention than other classes (they got two new spells for some reason)
•
u/demon_soulz 23m ago
The reason is simple, you cant play frost mage (in pvp at least) without farming for procs with a lower cast time and less mana, you cant be fighting someone spamming max rank frostbolts and expect to not be completely destroyed, frost mage is a glass cannon and extremely proc dependant.
The other spell was added to make arcane builds viable. Mage had basically one viable spec, after the changes it seems like it has 3. Compare it to lock that had all 3 specs reworked from the start and all 3 look viable and distinct in playstyle, and the reasoning for the mage changes becomes obvious.
•
u/Kudosforkodos 1h ago
I mean I didn’t really see that. I know people were complaining about paladins.
•
u/demon_soulz 1h ago
The crying about mage never stopped lmao, because they got frost blast to compensate for not being able to play around rank 1 frost bolt to farm procs, and also because missile barrage got buffed.
•
u/Kudosforkodos 58m ago
Yeah but you can still use rank 1 frostbolt at 30 for procs. Isnt frostblast more relevant at 60?
•
•
•
u/Tromster 1h ago
Yesterday i said the stats are bs because warrior was up on mage and everyone was like "but muh frost resist" https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/1x7rw1u/horde_duel_stats_from_the_day_before_the_big_duel/ph6qg9l/
•
u/RegularFeeling8389 1h ago
Another big reason is people prob didn't wanna waste expensive consumes on practice duels.
•
•
u/MrMagicFluffyMan 1h ago
Low sample sizes, self-section bias with asymmetric incentives
Still useful data
•
•
•
u/Breadmanwalking 1h ago
Everyone crying about mages for 2 weeks straight and they are in the dumpster with the warriors so far
•
u/Twin_Turbo 1h ago
This is full consumes and engi and full fap usage. If faps were not used like 95% of wpvp encounters mages would have 60+ win rate
•
u/jjjaaaacckk 56m ago
Extremely speculative, thank you for adding nothing.
•
u/SandvichCommanda 45m ago
Which is a funny thing to say in a comment with literally no substance lmfao. Care to say anything?
•
u/jjjaaaacckk 38m ago
I did. I said speculation is useless lmao. Do you want me to speculate the other way? That's dumb because it would be speculation, which is what I am criticising.
•
u/BlueSeekz 40m ago
speculative about what??? that mage's rely on constant CC, or that everyone in the tournament is using potions that disable CC?
•
•
u/mntx99 1h ago
So apart from war who's built to work with a healer, mage is the weakest pvp class at 30.
•
u/grasswhistle28 45m ago
mages only beat the melee classes they can successfully kite. Reddit's opinion of them is completely warped due to obsessing over certain mage streamers
•
u/Rhobodactylos 17m ago
Can't kite anything in a locked circular area with people having 10 extra potion buffs on them.
Big shock that mages can't win when everyone's throwing grenades, has 50 different health pots and random shields/sprints/resistance gear to counter you.
People also taking lvl 30 twinks 1v1 seriously are out of their minds.
You won't have free action potions/health pots at Lvl 30 with you when the mage decides to frost nova and lance you down in 3 globals while running to your next quest.
•
u/omegaonion 45m ago
Should also add this is on a very optimised setup, mages will do better in open world PvP and bugs when levelling due to the nature of fights there.
Not to say they are OP but they are a bit better than they appear here
•
•
u/Gunzbngbng 1h ago
Yup. Hunters needed their pets nerfed to the ground and auto shots laggy with minimum range.
•
u/survivalScythe 1h ago
All the people complaining about mage, where are you now lol.
•
•
u/Kudosforkodos 1h ago
I mean say what you will but they JUST got nerfed on Thursday
•
u/survivalScythe 1h ago
Maybe you haven’t been following, but after the nerf people were still complaining. It wasn’t a flat nerf because we got a buff to missile barrage and frost blast, and everyone was absolutely losing their minds that Ice lance wasnt nerfed enough and getting buffs.
People just hate mage for no reason it’s annoying.
•
•
u/grasswhistle28 1h ago
B-b-but blizzard needs to nerf ice lance! Mage is god hero class!! How can this be???
•
•
u/Pure-Fuel-9884 1h ago
So mages are not really one shotting everyone with ice lance like morons here think. Shocking.
•
u/Mouthshitter 1h ago
Morons see a edited clip and think it's the end of the world
•
u/Filipe1998W 1h ago
the venruki clip with arcane wrath took him 90min of dueling to finally get a duel where he could stack 4 ab and then crit the wrath with missile proc active already, so it's not just ice lance either
and people actually linked that as if it was actually overpowered, people in this sub famously don't play the game (was kinda common thing after phase 1 in 2019, where most people who had the strongest opinions in this sub had quit before 60 or after first couple MC raids), so it's all 2nd hand info from streams and other reddit threads.
•
u/demon_soulz 58m ago
I mean, losing their mind because mage got a much needed rework after being one of the classes that got nothing but indirect nerfs and had 1 viable spec is peak reddit.
•
u/Filipe1998W 26m ago
it's crazy to me, because on the classes podcast mage only got talked about for like 4 minutes, and most of it was about baseline iceblock and how mages got nerfed because of bots
which okay cringe but whatever, but their only relevant comment was "we're aware mage is in need of more work and buttons"
3 weeks have since passed, so ye they obviously added that stuff on this patch since it's last patch before end of beta
and people talk about the class as if it got these INSANE changes all throughout the beta
•
•
•
u/JozuJD 1h ago
Cool data. Not too many surprises so far, to be honest. The top classes are “controllers”, and Paladin has lay on hands every 20 minutes, effectively up for every duel.
Fun tournament so far.
I’m still picking my class for launch, and even though Warrior is so cool, the thought of 1-60 in PvP server while knowing how bad it is in 1v1s makes my head spin. I might need to avoid it for that reason alone. But would love to have a BiS’ed out Warrior at 60, running dungeons and raiding in PvE. And do BGs when I feel like it.
Maybe Paladin or Shaman are worthy alternatives. Paladin I’d probably go Holy, Shaman I’d go Enh. Keep the 2-handed windfury Hand of Rag dream alive
•
u/GetShroomy 1h ago
Yeah I haven't been too excited about the changes to Warriors, they seem to be getting a bit forgotten. But in the end, I have to stick with my class!
•
•
•
u/Nostwins 1h ago
Why the complaints about mage and rogue will never end even though both rarely won Blizzcon compared to the really OP classes like Lock. Because bad players all tried them, failed at them and want braindead specs to be OP like Ret, BM hunter, SL/SL lock. Shadowpriest (they were too bad to play Affliction Lock), Enhance. People will never admit it though. Just wait until actual good players reroll classes like Paladin and Hunter if bads get their way and classes like Mage and Rogue end up bad.
•
u/MrMagicFluffyMan 1h ago
This heavily skewed by what’s FOTM. Seeing a lot of trash tier hunters for example
Would be cool to remove players with a low win rate from this
•
u/Bungulator69 1h ago
Who would have thought that the classes that have the most utility are the classes winning the most duels.
Only outlier is shaman and that’s expected for level 30
•
u/Neidrah 1h ago edited 1h ago
Wow, who would've thought that making Soul Link (arguable the strongest in the game) easier to get for the class that was already winning the most 1v1s (winning the most tourneys in classic even with Soul Link banned) would have given such result?
/s
•
u/altmly 1h ago
I'd argue fear has been way more problematic since the dawn of time. It's some fucking bs that sometimes you can do 50% of someone's hp while they are fully cc
•
•
u/Syfogidas_HU 1h ago
Yeah you should be able to do 100% like rogues.
And then also disappear and drop combat.
While you keep someone else CC'd.
•
u/Zealousideal-Way8676 1h ago
Tick damage should automatically stop the fear. Naaah, that would be too balanced.
•
•
•
u/Rhobodactylos 15m ago
And CC effects like sap and sheep should be 6 seconds like retail /s
Slppery slope/Can't have your cake and eat it too/In the name of friction yada yada...
•
u/MaximumMeaning9728 1h ago
Hunters are definitely not easy to play consistently. You can totally whiff and get run down.
•
u/GetShroomy 1h ago
It's all relative, they are definitely not easy whatsoever in an absolute sense - no class is. At this level they are all very difficult and require very precise timing, knowledge and perfect split second decision making. But in a relative sense, Warlocks have always been the class in the Classic scene that have a very high skill ceiling, letting players like Snutz really shine.
•
•
u/TeamPach 1h ago
I'm surprised paladin are number 2.
•
u/Randvek 1h ago
Why? One of the odd design choices for Paladin is that they have essentially their entire toolkit by 30. Sure they are missing their hammer finisher and a few auras, but they are mostly “done” by now.
Having access to most of your tools for this tournament is a big advantage.
•
u/TeamPach 1h ago
I don't do much PvP, but paladin always felt weak to me, since they don't have a gap closer.
•
•
u/censuur12 49m ago
Limited space to run and it's impossible to root a paladin reliably. Paladin swings hit hard and they'll dump a bunch of cooldown abilities on you all at once. You burst them down they shield and heal back to full and there's not a lot you can do in return. Ret spec will also just straight up outrun any other class with 15% movespeed, outside of shapeshifting forms or aspect of the cheetah.
Paladin's main issue is that they scale terribly. Warriors for example get more rage as they level and get more gear. Paladins getting more mana doesn't really do much of anything. And there used to be no real endgame gear for paladins beside PvP sets.
•
u/omegaonion 43m ago
This setup is favourable to paladins tbh but I think you will see them do worse as it gets more competitive tomorrow
•
u/Tripinfa 1h ago
in fairness on the hunter drop, the pet nerfs and the auto shot .5s requirement just dropped a couple days ago so it would have been surprising for them to stay the same.
•
u/Meto1183 1h ago
Why are druids getting smoked by shaman lmao
•
•
u/Colsanders8 44m ago
It'll be different tomorrow. Mvq and Soda know the matchup and aren't going to lose to it. It's supposed to be an autowin for druids.
•
u/omegaonion 42m ago
Earth shock is really hard for them to deal with , grounding totem hurts a lot, getting caught out of form is a huge risk, druid is also very hard to play so matchups like shaman leave a lot of opportunities to make a small mistake and get 1 shot
•
u/N0T_BRYAN_COLANGELO 41m ago
Generally a well balanced pvp game should go like this;
Mechanically difficult class = Class A
Mechanically easy class = Class B
The mechanically difficult class should win when piloted by a top level player.
Good player: Class A > Class B
Average player: Class A = Class B
Bad player: Class A < Class B
This tournament is full of top level players mostly I think we can say. So really the mechanically difficult classes should be at the top (if balance was good). And I'm not sure that that's the case here? Though maybe someone with more Wow knowledge than me can chime in and give their take on which classes are actually the most mechanically difficult, because I'm not really entirely sure.
•
u/SargntNoodlez 12m ago
We're looking at a level 30 tournament in a game the devs have stated will not have a competitive PVP mode in the near future. In retail, where comp pvp does exist, they use multiple strategies to balance classes for pvp specifically. PvP just isn't currently a focus for this version of the game.
•
u/JozuJD 28m ago
Soda went 5-0 and took out 2 or 3 warlocks, can’t remember. Gaming.
Hard gaming, all that viagra lol.
•
u/GetShroomy 10m ago
6-0, 3 Warlocks! Impressive as hell, he really is a master of his class. He also plays a much less popular build in the tourney.
•
•
u/alowlyrandom 1m ago
Honestly I think the whole thing is a sham without gear standardization. I get determining where to draw the line makes some classes better than others, but it's such an uneven playing field where farming prep and gold matters more than player combat skill. They should've either decided on specific allowed gear sets or at least not let you change sets based on opponent class.
•
u/Shampu 1h ago
My questions is how did 37% of Warlocks manage to lose?
•
•
•
u/Hard_Content_Good 1h ago
I don't believe that warlock is the best class inherently, but they are by far the best class for abusing the duel flee rule. I think it will become a larger problem later in the tournament.
•
u/Afraid-Adeptness-926 37m ago edited 33m ago
Isn't intentionally forcing a flee literally banned in the tournament rules?
Edit; Yes, it is;
- Intentionally fleeing from a duel may result in a rematch, an assigned win or loss, a disqualification, and/or forfeiture of all prize money by the fleeing player determined at the discretion of Tournament Officials. If a player is intentionally force-fled by another player (i.e., intentionally chain fearing a player on the rim of the duel line), the exploiting player triggering the force-flee may be assigned a loss, a disqualification, and/or forfeiture of all prize money determined at the discretion of Tournament Officials.Competitors should be mindful that ambiguous flee situations may arise, and those will be called into review and judgment at the discretion of the TFO organizers.
•
u/Hard_Content_Good 35m ago
In theory, unless you do so in a way that isn't obvious, then you get a rematch. It happened against Pilav.
•
u/IM_INSIDE_YOUR_HOUSE 1h ago
I hope the forever devs don’t make massive kneejerk changes to classes based on some streamer grift tournament
•
u/Grand-Loquat-6434 1h ago
What is a streamer “grift” tournament. It’s literally free to watch.
•
u/Hard_Content_Good 1h ago
He is using it to advertise a paid addon and there was corruption with how he handled the Jerome situation.
•
u/Grand-Loquat-6434 1h ago
Who is “he”? Don’t buy the addon? This would be like saying all sports is a grift because they accept gambling sponsors.
What Jerome situation? I’m sure it’s another nothing burger that no one should care about.
•
u/Hard_Content_Good 1h ago
Tipsout, the tournament organizer. Jerome wasn't given a reduel for a flee situation and was DQed by Tipsout after he complained to him, he then crashed out.
•
u/Filipe1998W 1h ago
jerome did it repeatedly, he's a outrage farmer ever since his 14 hour tbc raids started getting him some clicks via hate viewers
•
u/MrMagicFluffyMan 1h ago
To be clear Mage and Hunter are still ultra battleground stompers in unorganized PvP
•
•
u/Hard_Content_Good 1h ago
I believe a big reason warlock has a higher winrate in the tournament is because they are subtly abusing the flee rule when they would otherwise lose. Watched the duel vs Pilav where the warlock did this when he was about to lose and then won the next duel. Warlocks weren't doing this outside of Org because they wanted to keep this tech hidden so people would not become suspicious.
•
•
u/Colsanders8 51m ago
they wanted to keep this tech hidden so people would not become suspicious.
Cmon, Snutz did this to not lose out to soda in the previous duel tournament. How we acting like this is hidden tech?
•
u/Spare_Lobster_2200 1h ago
Claiming warlocks are hard is wild man it’s one of the easiest duel classes in the game
•
•
u/_CatLover_ 1h ago
Warriors only exist to cleave raid trash and tank, all other aspects of the game are strictly verboten
•
u/rcanhestro 1h ago
Warriors are the scariest class to play against, if they get a pet healer to help them.
•
u/_CatLover_ 1h ago
no because they dont get rage anymore.
•
u/censuur12 47m ago
Yeah boohoo warriors don't get to spam all their abilities for free anymore bawwww.
•
u/Nostwins 1h ago
The funny thing is Warlock gets much better at 42 with Deathcoil and then will become unkillable with SL/SL. SL/SL in Forever was a HUGE mistake. and it made arenas miserable and BG's miserable when everyone rerolled them . It's just not fun to play against. Remove SL/SL and balance around Affliction and Destruction.
•
u/xXGreco 1h ago
I don’t think the game is balanced around 1v1 and that’s fine.
•
u/Nostwins 1h ago
SL/SL was a plague in TBC BG's as well and it's why no one wants to play TBC PvP. It's simply really bad and PvP took until WOTLK to get good again. Putting SL/SL in Forever was one of the worst decision they have made. SoD PvP was awful and they are off to a bad start here.
•
•
u/Senior_Dependent_763 1h ago
Level 30 tourney remember. 1v1s were never balanced to begin with, especially level 30. Don't call for nerfs before seeing how every class does at max level on equal footings. People getting way to bent out of shape over a level 30 pvp tourney