as an AFAB nb, i feel similarly. but also i have seen AMAB NBs be treated even worse than AFAB NBs in queer spaces, which is trash. i thought "theyfab" was bad but no some queer spaces legit come up with borderline conspiracy thinking to justify their hatred of AMABs and say they're fakers who just want to feel included or infiltrate queer spaces.
I've definitely had some instances where my nonbinary identity felt mostly discarded by some people, until I mentioned that I was on hrt. Then suddenly using they/them for me got easier? It can be very frustrating feeling like you have to be "trans enough" to be seen as valid, and I can only imagine how frequently more masc presenting nbs get that treatment. It really comes down to people trying to shove nonbinary folks into one of two gendered boxes at the end of the day.
Not long ago I came to the conclusion I am non-binary, and informed my partner. She's fully on-board with it but struggles to keep it in mind - so she ends up referring to me in the masculine and as a man. It is fine for me, as I was brought up as masculine, but it kinda stings.
I have not come out to anyone else in my life, and I feel it will be difficult for them to get to terms with it.
Learning it is this hard in the queer community for AMAB NBs kinda hurts. I'm sorry you have gone through this hardship. I see you. Be yourself and stay strong.
I will say, while there are definitely struggles with getting people to acknowledge you for who you are, there are also people out there who will accept you and see you for you. Even with the difficulties I've faced I'm still happier than I've ever been by just being myself, it's still very much worth it.
The early days are rough, but I hope your partner is able to adjust and see you for you, and that you can have more acceptance within your circles soon. Even having just one person being accepting can be a huge help. I see you as well, and I hope you'll continue to be yourself and stay strong as well <3
Im only out to my friend group and a single family member and you are so right.
Im still closeted in most situations due to safety with family, and just people's gendered assumptions in public
But the fact that i have a space where my pronouns and gender are wholeheartedly accepted and I am seen as myself truly does soothe the burn from my burning closet.
Thank you for your kind words to the other commentor ❤️
Hi, your comment and the one you replied to made me sad, so I apologize if you feel this perspective is unwarranted, but I offer it in hopes that it might make you feel a little more seen.
I am a male who has been in a relationship with an AFAB NB for the past 7 years. “They/ them” is now fully integrated into my subconscious, I don’t even have to think about it, but it wasn’t that way when we started dating.
They had to give me a lot of grace because I messed it up often. I always felt terrible after doing so. They were the first NB person I had regularly interacted with. It took some getting used to.
I never once felt like they were asking too much, and made sure to reinforce the pronouns around my friends/ family I introduced them to so they didn’t have to feel like they constantly had to explain themselves or be validated. It took effort, but it was worth it because now I feel like I see them and other trans people how they actually want to be seen.
My partner also struggled to feel validated by other queer communities. I wish they had more trans/ queer friends because even though I love them and see them, I can never truly understand what that dysphoria feels like. But they are loved and seen by me, my friends and family.
I guess what I’m getting at is that I can’t imagine how much anxiety you must feel about coming out beyond your GF, but if she loves you and you love her, I hope you trust that her mistakes are not to invalidate you, she will get better at it and can help be a bridge to introducing the real you to everyone else.
Yeah, even in a lot of queer spaces nonbinary people are treated as basically "woman-lite." So it's all "you don't owe anyone androgyny" when you're AFAB NB, but if you're AMAB, you're expected to perform.
As an AFAB enby who doesn't even present that masc, I'm correctly gendered pretty consistently in queer circles, but I do notice my AMAB enby friends facing a lot more resistance. It's weird. The enbyphobia really is just coming from inside the house sometimes.
I think in a lot of cases it just makes it click for people that it's serious and not some fleeting thing, but it still has some weird transmed vibes to it yeah. I think it mostly comes from ignorance though.
In my experience the sort of person that will start referring to binary trans women with they/them pronouns will suddenly find it so difficult to do so for me who actually uses they/them... I tend to limit interactions with that sort of person.
This is why I don't feel comfortable in queer spaces as a cishet guy in general - I'm not a dick, I'm not trying to pretend i'm any more queer than "what's in your pants isn't a dealbreaker" or be part of "the group" or anything, but it really feels like just being there would somehow detract from the purpose of that space.
Like there are spaces that are queer-friendly and there are queer spaces, and in an ideal world that venn diagram would be a circle but right now those are two different things
and in an ideal world that venn diagram would be a circle
I don't think that's true at all. Maybe you mean concentric circles? Queer spaces are a sub-set of queer-friendly spaces, but all places should be queer-friendly spaces.
I think you're agreeing with me and making what is a valid technical clarification, but I'm also saying there shouldn't even been a need for that distinction because nobody should be put in a position to feel a need to have ANY kind of exclusionary space. Part of the problem is that all spaces are assumed to be "straight spaces" and there's a need to indicate being queer-friendly at all, because not being queer friendly is common enough that there is a need to mark a space as friendly.
Again, that's wholly idealistic and not something that's realistic given gestures broadly, and this is getting more philosophical than the original intent of "some people suck and ruin things for others, and I wish it weren't that way"
nobody should be put in a position to feel a need to have ANY kind of exclusionary space.
I feel like that is both unrealistic, and untrue. There is some value in having a shared space where everyone is on the same page and has shared experiences. It's just that the size of those circles contained in the bigger one should be tiny. The majority of the world should be welcome to everyone, but having a juggler's club or something isn't inherently bad.
Yeah but having a hobbyist club is about enthusiasm for a subject and not because talking about juggling in public is something that's potentially unsafe.
Nothing about being "queer" should be a reason for being ostracized, judged, or excluded in any way, and I don't think that's equivalent to finding people who share an interest.
Again, "realistic" in current society is not the same as ideal, and I recognize that. There shouldn't be a need for queer spaces because queer people shouldn't feel that they can only be themselves in specific places/situations
I agree with you that queer people should be able to be themselves everywhere. My point was just that even in that world, it would still be okay to have queer-only spaces. Just like it's ok to have women only spaces, men only spaces, etc. As long as those things are small, and not intended to be exclusionary (like every coffee shop is suddenly a "men only" space). I do think those things would feel far less necessary in a world where huge swaths of people weren't being oppressed for who they are, but I don't think they need to disappear entirely. I'm open to the idea that I'm wrong though. It's hard to fully predict how I would feel in a world where 30-50% of the population weren't just massive dicks.
same shit happens to bisexual men in queer communities, they get ostracised because reasons? there just seems to be a really nasty undercurrent of misandry in non binary and other queer spaces for AMAB people who arent "queer enough"
I’ve seen AMAB enbies get kicked from queer venues for hitting on women, the LGBT community genuinely seems to hate you guys. And allies are worse, one of my friends got kicked out of a club because large AMAB body + slacks and full beat of makeup did not read as trans woman or gay man enough, and the staff just assumed my friend was a creep or that they weren’t taking things seriously enough.
Its rough as a trans man too. Lots of queer friendly events in my area! Except when you read them it tends to say something along the lines of “lesbians, trans women, nonbinary”
I’ve met more trans men by being involved in the local parks system and going to reptile shows than by going to actual queer places/events. Y’all are completely talked over online AND there’s no place for you irl, it really sucks, I’m sorry
I’m an AFAB nonbinary person, and my AMAB nonbinary sibling is definitely a lot less vocal about their identity than I am. A part of it might just be our overall personalities; they’re far more introverted than I am. But yeah, I definitely buy that.
samesies. add onto that im aroace and even cis/allo spaces become burdensome. theres also enough aphobia/erasure in the queer community to compound the issue.
Yeah, I was military for a bit, long-time gamer so my language reflects all that. I come off as super CISHET despite being pan and NB. Outside of cases where someone is likely required to ask gender, everyone just assumes straight man.
It’s easier to just.. correct the opinions of people you care about. Sometimes an AFAB will tell me they’re NB, and I’ll say, “Same here.” And I’ll get this look from them. It’s either confused, or disbelieving. I’ve been accused of pretending to be NB or pan in order to attract “quirky” women, or to seem sensitive. I hate people sometimes.
It's so weird to me to think that queer spaces seem to be exclusionary to "the wrong kind of queer" people.
Like, I'm cishet and I manage to not care about what someone else identifies as just fine. I had a colleague who identified as a dragon (no joke, she was transspecies). I admit, it took me a second, but really I don't care.
I'm weird in my own ways, so why would I care what someone else wants to be "non-standard" about?
In the light of that it does confuse me a fair bit why there seem to be so many queer spaces that exclude "the wrong kind of queer" people, considering that inclusivity to queer people is the main point for queer spaces to exist.
I wonder if it has something to do with it being more socially acceptable for women to present masculine, such as wearing pants, versus it being less acceptable for men to present feminine, such as wearing dresses? AFAB people might be more likely to experiment with their gender presentation in comparison to AMAB people because there’s a higher social cost to it. So maybe the AMAB people who do experiment are more likely to be binary trans women, and therefore have a stronger desire to present femininely than someone who is just enby.
That being said, I also think that a lot of people that are assumed to be trans women in reality have a more complex relationship with gender. They might be enby but present feminine, or genderfluid, or any number of things.
I don’t know, maybe I’m phrasing some of this badly but it’s interesting to me how social perceptions affect the numbers on these things.
I definitely think it’s a big part of it sadly. That and afab people are seen as ’safer’ because ’omg weak woman can’t think and must simply be confused but at least she isn’t hurting anyone but herself’.
And masculinity is often praised, and while afab people who participate in it in ways that aren’t acceptable by most of society are definitely still facing a lot of hate and all of that for it, but many sexist and bigots can still sort of come to terms with the idea (not support it but somewhat claim to understand it) that a ’weak worthless woman’ would want to be a ’big strong man’ because femininity is deemed and seen as bad, even when it’s done in their correct idea, and for a perceived man to want to stop to women’s level is deemed as completely unacceptable and they are seen as both ’weak’ because ’femininity and women are weak’ and also a ’threat’ because they’re ’still a man’ etc.
Genuinely is so bigoted in so many aspects and it’s genuinely terrible.
Yeah. I honestly feel a lot of it comes down to a fear of masculinity and general misandry/perception of male = threat. Which, ironically, is the same reason transfem people get so much flak.
And why within the trans community, trans men/masc are weirdly hated by many trans fems. Sadly I'm not exaggerating that point, most of the generic trans spaces online seem to delete, ban or insult/abuse any trans masc willing to say that they are one, or talk about their/masc issues in a space that isn't specifically a trans masc space.
We all get flak, the people who are being nasty to us just happen to be different based on your sex and/or gender.
(There are lots of lovely people online in these communities, but sometimes it's hard to see that when you feel hated for daring to be a guy.)
there's a lot of that, from what I have heard second hand, about queer-but-not-just-gay men (bi men especially) and AMAB-but-not-transfem people in general, like any kind of "in between" is ok for some groups but not others
I mean so does afab queer folks too? What biases are you referring to? The fact that any form of feminity is deemed as weak because women = weak and weak = bad or?
654
u/Eveseeker Jul 31 '26
Yeah, well, AMAB NB folk get dismissed or ostracized a lot even from queer communities. So they tend to be a lot more invisible.