It’s not like there’s an entire genre of art just for that, but ya know, “nobody pays attention to that”.
Fr though look up something like Love & Deep Space, or even cheesey erotic novel you find in the book aisle at say your local Walmart. It’s not like a catch-all, obviously, but there’s enough of a market there that works. Could behoove you to dig into why, and what works.
That’s an accurate stereotype for women’s romance books. I get what you’re saying I just don’t think it’s a great point to make given how prevalent the billionaire/beast stereotype is
That's a fundamental difference between women's attraction and men's. Status and personality over looks. Men are very surface level, IE you only seeing them as beasts and billionaires. Literally judging a book by it's cover. The heart of what makes these things work is showing more depth of character. It's what under the surface that make them work. Spend more than 5 minutes watching/reading and you start to see what makes it work.
Unfortunately, [r/bald](r/bald) has taken off and is getting rid of all the MPB guys based on what men find attractive, so I’ve given up on that.
Oh, oh. And the massive looksmaxxing movement keeps growing so, another bad sign.
And all the dudes who seem confident cause they leave their bodies alone then have massive personality issues (combative about it, insecure about it) but aren’t actually confident.
Why can’t we just get normal men again?
Edit: no but it’s really hard for my bf to see himself on tv or in pictures. I hate it for him.
Idk, I feel like men in gaming are almost exclusively now dedicated to the female gaze, at least in super popular franchises
You know what we need? Just straight up, more of everything. More sexualised men, women, more realistic men, women, all of the ranges, just let creators make what they like without filling quotas.
The average male gamer looks and sounds like Kratos in the same way the average female gamer looks like Eve from Stellar Blade.
This is not to say that women are not highly sexualized in media, and have not been for a long time. But he's right in that most of the 'leading men' in games media are very much sexualized. It's just that sexualization of men looks different and is, frankly, more subtle. Which is and of itself an indicator of problematic cultural elements, but is also just a reality of the modern age.
Women generally don't want men that look like Kratos. The characters that most women drool over in video games are like Garrus in Mass Effect, Hancock in FO4, and Iron Bull from DA:I (and not for his physique.)
Buff men are ALSO for the male gaze. They represent what men want to be.
He has muscles, but they’re not highlighted. His hair is not sexualized. His outfits are practical and traditional, not catered to be hot. His movements are normal. His poses? The same.
Women find him hot. But that doesn’t mean he is highly sexualized. He’s realistically sexualized. In fact, now I think, Overwatch is great about not highly sexualizing their characters, but making them more realistic.
Just cause women find a man hot, it doesn’t mean he’s highly sexualized. Hanzo does not get drawn or animated like Nightwing. That’s real high sexualization for women.
This is a non argument which only attempts to muddy the waters of the actual discussion.
I've met plenty of women who find kratos attractive aesthetically attractive, especially the modern variation which is incredibly jacked but has the frame to support it.
And the same goes for Leon Kennedy, Alistar (is that how you spell it?) from BG3, so on and so forth. Take your pick of them, and my 'the average male gamer is as far from X as the average female gamer is from Eve', or you could even say 'average man and average women's without the gamer addendum.
The same also goes for men. Neither gender finds purely one thing attractive, so any sexualized icon can be discarded under this premise.
At the end of the day you are as qualified to speak 'for women' as I am to speak 'for men' in terms of what is attractive, which is to say we have nothing but our own preferences, anecdotes, and the bits of actual data which exist that we have both access to. We can both speak for any group equally well.
The same also goes for men. Neither gender finds purely one thing attractive, so any sexualized icon can be discarded under this premise.
Has any one told you that 'finds attractive' and 'sexualised' aren't the same thing?
Women's bodies are sexualised routinely in comics and the like by making their bodies to be ogled at, to project sexuality. Most of the time men's bodies are exhibited, it's to project strength. This perspective is the 'male gaze' at work.
Not that men aren't sexualised at all, but it is wholly different and less objectifying, by comparison and volume.
Hence why people are screaming for better and less offensive representation of women 😔
The subtlties are what women want, too. A hint of sexy but not flat out represented as a large chested bimbo sex puppet unlike a man with some hyper attractive qualities but still focused on for the plot rather than being a sex puppet.
The undertones of the art show just how degraded women are in videogames and media in general. They're a damsel in destress. Men are seen as "heroes" more often than women are. Women are depicted as either untouchable goddesses that abuse power with sex or seen as completely useless other than a sex symbol.
20 years ago sure, women were 100% just prizes for completing a game. No arguments. But I think that argument falls apart for modern games.
I haven't played nearly everything (let alone tracked every release), but I struggle to think of a high-profile game taking the 'big chested wide hipped women in chains waiting for you to rescue them like a manly man' approach in the last decade, if not more. Most often they're the badass protagonist (stellar blade, neir automata, alien isolation, the various newer GoW games), or heavily subverting the trope (RE7 where the wife you're going to save is a half batshit insane monster, modern GoW games where all the women are strong and capable with distinct personalities, Emma from Sekiro, ect).
Which is, again, not to say there are not plenty of issues with female representation in media in general. Or that there is not the aggressively vocal minority of the chuds. Or that there are not games which still play to the offensive and bad archetypes of the past (especially with the prevalence off H-games making their way into big platforms). I'm not here to say that we've solved sexism or objectification in media.
I'm just saying that in this particular instance of discussion, we're doing okay. The big AAA scene sexualizes men in games about as much as women, and does not religate women to the damsel box (or even put them there in general these days) anymore.
Again, this isn't everything being solved. There is a discussion to be had about the male protagonist ratio to female to be sure, and still plenty of other problems with the industry - and media in general - at large. But we can kinda rest this particular avenue, because the battle there is pretty much won.
The fact that you keep bringing up Stellar Blade shows you have no idea what you're fucking talking about lmao.
"Oh yeah the boring repetitive hack-and-slash with the boring living sex doll main character in skintight clothes jiggling for the viewers enjoyment is totally 100% exactly the same as the ridiculously yolked god of a man who actually gets to be a character in his own game"
Kratos is a male wish fulfillment. Tough strong guy who’s also protective of his son. No femininity around at all? The gentleness is still heavily masculine?
The idea he’s the female ideal is part of that wish fulfillment.
But no. The most fuckable man is gaming is Hanzo from Overwatch. To me.
Women look like Eve so men can tolerate playing them or seeing them cause they’ll jack off to them later.
As someone who grew up around male gamers in the south; once they forget that you’re a woman (cause you aren’t fuckable) they don’t hide what they actually think anymore. Why cover for them?
I also pointed out there are examples of this trope being literally confirmed by developers, like with RE9 and BG3.
To say "almost exclusively" is admittedly hyperbolic, but it's more to indicate an enormous shift in the thinking in AAA design philosophy. Kinda the flipside of the "REE THEYRE MAKING WOMEN UGLYY REEEE" but like, actually a thing and not incel posturing.
Women generally don't want men that look like Kratos. The characters that most women drool over in video games are like Garrus in Mass Effect, Hancock in FO4, and Iron Bull from DA:I (and not for his physique.)
Buff men are ALSO for the male gaze. They represent what men want to be.
And it's crazy how many people are adamant that women aren't into it, yet if you go on Instagram, it's a billion posts simping over gruff buff daddy Leon, or characters from CoD who appeal to the male power fantasy but have women drooling over them.
I'm not a woman. That has been my observation from 40 years in the gaming community. In general, both male and female characters are designed with the male gaze in mind. In general, women tend to drool over more unconventionally attractive characters rather than beefcakes. Will the beefcakes have their strong fan base? Yup. But it doesn't make up the majority.
I even gave examples of it being a confirmed thing by the developers, like RE9 Leon's design being curated by the women in the company. it's just...women's idea of sexy (often) isn't as exploitative and gross as mens...how is that a bad thing?
Like, the "sexualised men" to appeal to women generally don't even need to have their top off like in the image here. Women just (on the whole) don't seem to be as gross with their characters.
Yeah. That’s the male gaze. Most of the women I know don’t actually like sexy hunks with gruff voices. We like skinny guys or dad bod medium types. All the men I know who are sexy hunks with gruff voices are trying to attract the gender who really prioritizes that. You know. Men.
But of course. Women find men attractive based on what men find hot, we all know that 🙄
No wonder it took me a year to convince my man I was serious about being into him. And yes, I am still pissed at society about that one.
Yeah, that's why there are a billion and one simp posts for all of the RE male protagonists, or CoD thirsty traps...because no women like hunky men with gruff voices.
Like, I get what you're saying, my partner loves a dad bod, but dismissing this as male gaze because it's not YOUR preference is silly.
Leon is like, the prime example of this, they even admitted letting women have the biggest input in his design so they could thirst after him and make him more appealing. Chris too, but Leon is the first time they actually admitted that was the design brief here. Then you have characters like Clive (or really, any male FFXVI character), Jason in GTA6 seems pretty made for women in the same way Lucia seems quite made for men (obviously not exclusively but there's an element of appeal there), every BG3 character, CoD is made to be military cool, but they ride the line between "wow this is cool" and "wow this is horny".
Making guys who appeal to women in modern gaming is just good business.
Didn't know about Leon, that's a cool little fact. Maybe I didn't realize cause none of them appeal to me personally lol
But yeah, with more women playing games it is pretty good business, just like making attractive women also is. I just maybe think (UNASKED FOR OPINION AHEAD ‼️) You can make hot appealing ladies without having them sexualized (unless you want your characters to be sexualized for a specific reason) I have a hard time getting into a universe where everyone dresses characteristically to the enviroment except for that one woman whose bazongas couldn't fit in the armor so they got her spiked bikini
and your examples are...? I'll agree that there are men in gaming who fit the female gaze fairly well, but the idea that they're in any way exclusively dedicated for the female gaze is laughable. The big "super popular" franchises that feature more realistic men and women rarely have fanbases with a large female component.
We already do, thats why every single male actor in marvel is required to ruin their body with dehydration and sterioids so they can do the obligatory shirtless scene.
No but for real. Take a look at non-roided appearance Hugh Jackman in a neutral non-threatening pose wearing a sweater and chinos for a woman’s mag cover next to the same man shirtless, covered in sweat, roided to hell appearance, and in a threatening pose for the men’s mag.
That’s for you guys. We openly want a cozy man who makes us comfy to laugh openly.
Thats niche and targetted directly to women tho. Of course there women that likes and does play video games but lets not pretend as if they are even close the amount of men.
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u/Lou_Papas 8h ago
We need more men designed for the female gaze.