r/dating_advice • u/Coldbrewaccount • 10h ago
What makes a guy come across as needy vs vulnerable in the early stages?
I think every man can relate to the experience of having a woman genuinely ask us about how we feel and then watching their eyes glaze over as they get the "ick" in real time. It's a very common frustration where men will say "women want us to be vulnerable, but leave when we are". I can say with confidence that even when I make it a point to not overshare or trauma dump... and let her be the one to ask for more info, it's like what she really wanted was for me to just say nothing.
So I guess Ill say ask it a different way. Women, to what extent do you want to be responsible for our emotional well-being?
I know zero isn't the answer. Nobody wants their partner to be unphased when they're sad or upset. Clearly, the desire to make someone's day better is informed, at least in part, by a genuine desire to see them be happy and positive. This means that obviously a man has to be SOMEWHAT affected by your emotional state and how you communicate with him.
So where do you draw the line? How can you tell if a man talking about his insecurities is too much?
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u/Agreeable-Heat-5331 9h ago
i think a big part of it is the framing. if you're talking about an insecurity like "work has been really stressful and i'm feeling unsure of myself," that's being vulnerable. but if it's "i don't think i'm good enough for you and i'm scared you'll leave," that can come off as needy because it puts the emotional labor on her to reassure you.
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u/Coldbrewaccount 9h ago
The way you put that second one is definitely the worst way of saying that, but is there really is no way to ask someone for reassurance about the relationship itself without being needy? There are plenty of times where there's a conspicuous disconnect and it's up to someone to address it.
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u/Why-Nope 9h ago
The second one needs to be dealt primarily with other men imo. Asking her to reassure you that she’s going nowhere will only exacerbate the problem or cause a new one if there wasn’t one.
Asking her if she needs/desires or wants anything from you can open the door for her to express anything she may need in your relationship, without the added level of unintended coerciveness of her having to reassure you that everything is ok.
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u/IHaveABigDuvet 8h ago
It depends if it becomes a constant cycle of asking for reassurance without any internal work of internalising it.
If the cycle is
then eventually that will become fatiguing for your partner.
- ask for reassurance
- not accept reassurance as truth
- ask for more reassurance
If the cycle is
then eventually the relationship can gain in trust and the insecure person can gain security.
- ask for reassurance
- accept reassurance
- address what is causing the insecurity
- process it
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u/BuffaloImaginary3454 1h ago
You can absolutely ask for reassurance in relationships, but if its early stages of dating, it can feel weird to be asked for reassurance.
Like, a clear, direct conversation of "i like you, i want this to go further, how do you feel" is vulnerability.
But if you want her to reassure your own personal insecurities, insecurities like your appearance, job, idk whatever, things that have nothing to do with her, her actions and your relationship with her, then it becomes needy and insecure.
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u/UntitledPavement 9h ago
That distinction makes sense: one is sharing your state, the other is asking her to manage teh relationship anxiety.
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u/Sweet_Bed_4773 8h ago
yeah that's a good way to put it. sharing your own experience vs making it her problem to solve
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9h ago
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u/Coldbrewaccount 9h ago
The problem is that I may ask her to address something in order to meet my needs. I can share that I feel a disconnect and communicate that I'm open to feedback if the there's something she needs because I want it to be a collaborative process. But ultimately, the implication is that my needs aren't being met and Im asking her to address it.
It doesn't mean Im going to ask her to swallow all the bullshit in her head for some short term reassurance.
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u/AdJumpy435 7h ago
yeah, the difference is sharing a feeling versus making it her job to fix that feeling for you
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9h ago
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u/Past-Register6557 7h ago
exactly, it's about sharing your feelings without making her your therapist. she wants to hear you're stressed, not that you need her to fix your self-esteem.
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u/methbabie 9h ago
You can be vulnerable and not be whiny bruh
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u/Justdoingitagain 9h ago
Yup
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u/Illustrious_Emu9074 6h ago
the whiny part is the key. it's the difference between stating a feeling and asking for constant validation about it
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u/Popular-Trade-9902 6h ago
exactly. it's about the tone and the intent, not just the act of sharing.
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u/Intrepid-Green-2504 8h ago
I mean, I think a lot of this is going to depend on how deep you are in the relationship.
I once matched with a guy on Hinge and he told me - before even setting up a date - how him and last last partner had 2 stillbirths. That's...a lot...for a person you're just chatting with. Whereas that might be more of a discussion once you've had some time to get to know each other.
Also, needy is when you come off as expecting the other person to solve your problems or hold all those difficult emotions. I have a friend who has a lot of anxiety and she has no verbal filter. A lot of her thoughts get verbalized. She gets stressed easily. She has a lot of past traumas. When talking about a former friend of mine who is similar but I stopped talking to them, my friend asked why I stay friends with her but not the other friend.
I said, "You just need to get things off your chest. You don't expect me to solve your problems and you don't abuse me. (Other friend) would lash out at me if I didn't tell him exactly what he wanted to hear. I became his emotional dumping ground."
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u/Coldbrewaccount 8h ago
It's easy to point to extreme examples. I have female friends. I ask them what guys have done to come off as needy. They've said crashing out over not getting a text back, texting "good morning" every morning with nothing to say, or just saying things like "I miss you" after a first date. I get it. There are guys where you probably ask them if they have siblings and they'll just start unloading on you.
What I'm talking about is way different. I havent acted that way in a long time. I'm specifically talking about when they feel comfortable going in depths about their emotions, trauma, or introspection; but then will clearly not offer the same level of support, reassurance, or even engagement. Obviously, the initial assumption you may be making is that I wait for my turn to talk and then go "OK, you told me your trauma so here's mine". This is not the case.
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u/Intrepid-Green-2504 7h ago
I mean, everyone is different and will have different thresholds.
For me personally, I answered your question. Needy means you expect me to solve your problems or become an emotional dumping ground with no reciprocation.
If you want advice, that's fine (just don't get mad if it's not necessarily what you want to hear). If you want validation, that's fine. If you want a shoulder to cry on, that's fine.
If you come to me with every little emotional upset and expect me to be an emotional punching bag, that's too much.
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u/Acrobatic-Race672 7h ago
yeah that's the frustrating part. it's not about the content, it's the emotional labor imbalance. she wants a connection but doesn't want to feel like your therapist. if you share something heavy and she just gives a generic "that's tough" and changes the subject, it shows she's not willing to meet you at that level of depth, which is a compatibility issue
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u/Coldbrewaccount 6h ago
The issue isn't that she lacks depth, it's if she feels it is a one way street. Then, it becomes less a compatibility issue and more of a "my needs are more important than yours due to toxic gender expectations" issue.
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u/Key-Proud 9h ago
Dont say your insecurities to women ... you say it to men (men you trust)
That is why there are women support groups.
- for women to talk to other women about their insecurities ...............
Unfortunately there is not many men support groups.
- so make sure you build one ...
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u/CogssyKindred69 9h ago
Men absolutely need spaces where they can talk about insecurities without worrying about being judged.
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u/Coldbrewaccount 9h ago
I would rather die alone than withhold information from someone out of a fear that they will not be attracted to me.
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u/Key-Proud 9h ago
They cant relate with your insecurities.
- again ... why do you think there is women support group.... when the women can just go to their partner ...
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u/Coldbrewaccount 9h ago
Well for a few reasons. First, because obviously a partner isn't there to be the sole source of support. You can go to a support group to find people with relatable experiences, and you can go to a partner so that the person you're fucking living with can hopefully let you feel seen.
That said, I'm sure a lot of these women are in support groups because they can't rely on their partners at all for this. It's more socially acceptable for them to do this, but that doesnt mean it's not sad.
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u/Usualusername190845 9h ago
Honestly it sounds like you’re going for the wrong woman. As long as you can both confide in each other, sharing insecurities should never be a problem
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u/Coldbrewaccount 8h ago
I realize that you mean well by this, but it's a pretty widespread thing. Most women will admit to neediness being their #1 turn off, which for a lot means any vulnerability a man expresses that asks for a response.
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u/Usualusername190845 6h ago
I don’t know you, but I’m going to assume you’re the monogamous type, so you’re just looking for one woman. Who cares what most women are like? If they can’t handle a guy who talks about their insecurities then they’re not the one for you. Them being put off just rules them out as potential partners.
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u/Coldbrewaccount 5h ago
It's frustrating. You assume that dating will be a discovery of what you like and what you don't like, and you'll meet people with a wide array of things that make them incompatible with you. When it just ends up being a similar issue with so many people from all different walks of life, it feels like groundhog day. It's just a slog.
I imagine it is similarly frustrating to deal with so many men that pretend theyre looking for a relationship just to get laid.
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9h ago
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u/Coldbrewaccount 9h ago
I don't take it personally anymore. I genuinely see it as them doing me a favor. People's words can lie but their reactions to things are a lot harder to fake.
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u/livesbreathesads 8h ago
How and when are you sharing? Are you bringing up things at a time when it's appropriate and are you matching the intimacy you already have with this person or are you dumping trauma to foster closeness? How do you talk about your emotions? Are you genuine and reflective or asking for a mother?
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u/Coldbrewaccount 8h ago
It is the former. I have waited for women to ask or we may be having a deep discussion about what makes the two of us who we are. What I can say with confidence is I have NEVER been the one to take it there first. I'm not looking for a mother
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u/night-laughs 8h ago
Not a woman but i’ll tell you how this works. It’s very simple.
Don’t complain. Ever. About anything. Not just to women. At all.
Women aren’t turned off by men being “vulnerable”, they’re turned off by men appearing weak or helpless.
If you share something, share it without making it sound like you’re whining or unable to find a solution.
To put it in a simple dichotomy:
- sharing without seeming like you don’t know how to handle the issue you’re sharing = not a turn off
-sharing from a place of weakness or helplessness, in the spirit of “oh woe me, what do i do” = turn off
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u/IHaveABigDuvet 8h ago edited 8h ago
I think showing some skills that show you are healthily managing your emotional world is really important.
Someone who is completely unregulated internally and can only avoid themselves instead of dealing with themselves in a healthy way is not attractive, because it means eventually this person might fall apart.
But someone that can say “this is the thing I am struggling with, and Im open to sharing it with you, but this is how Im managing it so far”, them that shows a long term ability to maintain their internal world.
Additionally, someone that is also willing and able to accept your support and respond in a healthy way, it is also attractive.
If you say you are having a hard time, and are also hostile to anyone supporting you in ways that will alleviate that, that just shows that when you a down, you will spiral further downwards instead of again, being able to manage yourself and lift yourself back up.
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u/Opia_lunaris 1h ago
Was struggling to put my thoughts properly into words, so I'm glad I scrolled down and came across you comment. Absolutely agreed on everything you mentioned!
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u/Suspicious_Turnip812 8h ago
Personally I do like it when guys show emotions and cry, it makes me sympathise with them and makes them come off as more human. But I guess it depends a bit on why they cry and what they're insecure about? Like a man crying because he thought no one would ever love him and because he hates himself is gonna scare me away. While a guy crying happy tears or because something serious happened, like a loved one getting hurt. Or even just because he feels overwhelmed is a whole nother thing, as long as he understands why he cries I'd say? I guess I just want a man who's emotionally mature, empathetic and who doesn't despise himself, because I'm getting a bit exhausted of dealing with those guys.
Oh and also guys who constantly complain about everything, or talk about how they want to die and then refuses when I tell them to please get help. I don't want to deal with those.
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u/MagicSugarWater 3h ago
Needy is showing 1) too much interest 2) too soon. Vulnerable is being human and flawed (like the most successful movie characters).
Let me explain.
Showing too much interest means you aren't matching her energy so it creates a disconnect becauae she literally can't relate to your energy. This also means you are coming on too strong and when she creates distance or boundaries, you try to smash through them (hence you are chasing because she is trying to escape and you relentlessly chase her. Notice my word choice here, it is deliberate). In practical terms, you have to monitor how much interest she shows and show roughly the same amount because MIRROR NEURONS (look them up) play a huge role. By approaching, you already show higher interest which can be good since you can pull up her level of interest. It's easier for her to meet you halfway if it only takes a step, right? And now you pull up her energy and she feels happier, which is conducive to seduction. Or you can show a little bit less eneergy which sucks out the fun and can potentially make her chase to bring you back up. This is a powerful technique but you risk creating low attainability which is the opposite problem as chasing and elads to autorejection but that is a WHOLE different problem. In concretr terms, you avoid being needy by calibrating how much attention and effort you give her. People call this mirroring which works, but that is superficial and misses the point. Try to adjust how much you're facing her, your eye contact, how often you engage, how often you text, or how open your body language is. Next, modulate your voice to show more or less enthusiasm based on what she expresses (if she is bored don't act like she is the hottest bestest princess, just act bored because she isn't a good date), touch her less, build a little more distance, compliment her less, etc. Reward interest with interest, respond to disinterest with disinterest.
Showing interest too soon means she didn't earn it. This ties into your self respect and how much you "need" this specific woman's attention. You have standards and turn offs right? Show it. Being willing to lose a girl because she sucks is the opposite of needy. Liking a girl because she is genuinely awesome is the kind of attraction women love because it feels genuine. Being needy is when she sucks as a person or a date and you keep pretending she is awesome because you have no standards and feel worse without a woman than with a bad woman. Women can't respect that. That's like respecting a guy who eats garbage. What does that say about him? He can't feed himself, he has no standards, he is in a bad place and can't help himself, his breath smells, and he'll probably crap himself depending on what he ate. So what does it say if you relentlessly chase a woman who is toxic like a leapoard chases a meal he needs to survive (see why I chose my words)? So only show interest based on what she reveals that you like. If you just met and she's hot, approaching shows interest. But then you can drop the energy after the opener because you already got the conversation wigh the hottie, but now your question is if you want to keep talking or see her in the future now that you saw her. See? Not needy, so it makes sense you are less energetic about the idea of talking. So she sayss omething you like? Show interest with a smile and/or a high five and attention. She doesn't? Pull back a little, maybe vocalize you didn't like it. See, HUMANS value what theywork for more than what they get for free. There was a survey where they asked people a hypothetical: you enter a sweepstakes to win your dream car, then you get a bonus at work for your performance, and having heard nothinf back from thw sweepstakes but now being able to afford your dream car, you buy it. The next week, you hear you won the sweepstakes and you receive an identical car for free. Which do you sell? People almost always got rid of the car they won in a contest because the car they worked for and bought meant more to them. Aplly this to women. If she needs to work for your attention and you only like her for who she truly is as a person, she is likelier to be attracted than a woman you simp for. So don't go all out at the start.
Vulnerable means being human and flawed like successful movie characters . I use this example for a reason. Full disclosure, the best player I know slept with over 100 women and he says crying in front of women makes them more attractive, which I hope will be clear after his example. Let's think of Spiderman 2 with Toby Maguire (or even Spiderman: Brand New Day, one of the most successful films of all time). Peter tries to do the right thing but is beaten down by life and seemingly punished. At his absolute lowest point with tears, defeat, and seeming helplessness that would crush any man 10 times over, he perseveres, saves the day, and gets the girl. That's an awesome story that people love! It's way more fun than the remake of Mulan where it's a powerful character who effortlessly solves her problems by being powerful. Boring. Spiderman seems way stronger since he faces problems no one could overcome and yet he does. That's badass. So this is what being vulnerable means. You do things that are hard and you fail sometimes because they are hard, but you keep going. Going back to the player, he says vulnerability works under these circumstances: you show strength beforehand so you aren't a net negative in her life, you show vulnerability openly and honestly, then you show conviction to overcome it. That makes you more relatable, more respectable, more honest, more courages, and more sympathetic in her eyes, all things women admire. He either talked about when he used to be a loser but then learned social skills (way more impressive than a guy naturally good with women) or his tough childhood (he cried, but he built a good present and clearly refused to stay broken while actively rising above it). Women wanted to stick around and see him finally win, just like audiences wanted to see Spiderman finally win. Dating is supposed to be your story, a romance story. Women love romance stories.
Here is a bonus story on vulnerability. I forgot his name but a top UFC Champion went on a tour in the African wilderness and he found a gorilla. The gorilla stared at him, then turned his back on him and left. The tour guide said this showed that the gorilla saw him as non-threatening to the point. Think about that. This is one of the strongest humans and the gorilla showed him his weak spot and walked away knowing that even if the champion scored a few hits on him, the gorilla could win. That's not the gorilla being a beta male walking away. THAT is strength. Lowering your walls and risking weakness because you know some woman can't actually hurt you. If the gorilla was constantly acting tough and trying to scare away the guy by acting Alpha, the gorilla would've been seen as weak. Why was he so worried about the champion punching him? I hope this is clear on how to show vulnerability, why it works so well, and how to not go too far and come off as a bitch.
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u/BuffaloImaginary3454 1h ago
I think for me (autistic woman which is important context in my message) a lot of it comes down to what what you need from me, how immediate that need is, if and how its communicated, and if I feel that it's an appropriate thing to need or share with me at our current stage.
If we've been messaging for a week or so, or had a date, the guy sharing information about his current situation, daily stresses, stating his emotional needs and preferences for a romantic relationship, is all pretty positive and welcome to me. This is information that I need to do in order to assess compatibility and understand him, and its being treated as information by both parties.
Its vulnerability, being open and honest about who you are, your needs, and standards. I don't need to do anything, you're not requiring anything from me, and I can response genuinely and without pressure.
Where it becomes needy and too much for me, is when hes saying or doing something that puts me in a position where I feel pressure to respond a certain way, to do something immediately, and I know that hes closely watching me for my reaction, and wanting me to follow his expected script.
And if I don't know him well, or I feel that it's too much too early, that creates even more pressure and discomfort for me.
So it would really depend on the context of whatever it was to make a judgement of whether something was too much. Also, everyone is so different, and what's too much for one person is not enough for another.
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u/lauraknightly 9h ago
She's not attracted to you (physically or personality-wise) if she rolls her eyes at you when you're being vulnerable.
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u/Emergency-Plum-1981 8h ago
This is not always true in my experience. I've had multiple women stop being attracted to me as soon as I opened up emotionally, when they clearly and outspokenly were prior to that. (they literally told me this)
I've also been with women who were very safe to talk to and emotionally supportive, but it's more the exception than the rule, at least with people I've dealt with in my life.
There's definitely this weird tension between society wanting men to be emotionally available, and getting the ick as soon as they open up about their own struggles.
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u/Normal_User_23 8h ago
Do not ever show your emotions to any women apart from your mother (and even in some case that's not a good idea), never. Contrary to what Reddit believes, most of women really dislike when men show himself as vulnerable or emotional, since it gives them the message that you are weak, not masculine enough and that you "act like a woman". When women say that they want "men who are emotional" they mean men who are aware enough of other people emotion so that you can properly listen to her and act as her therapist and make her feel emotionally comfortable ( that's the key point, it's about HER emotions and HER insecurities, not yours, you only show her pesudo emotional problems that you don't really have just to make her feel that she's been taking into account from you, nothing more), since many of us men tend to be pretty numb to emotions in general as a part of our gender expectation of being strong and stoic.
The reason that many women say that they want vulnerable men is just because women have the gender expectation of looking honorable and being respectable, so many times they hide what they really want just to not be judged by society.
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