Most of the popular mods on most games are straight up hacks and cheats to make the games easier. Infinite money. Max level instantly, etc. How is that not 100x more boring already?
beating dark souls as minecraft steve sounds really fun actually, being able to build but unable to do some of the normal things like rolling would be a really interesting tradeoff
it could, but it would take time and effort as all mods and other breakthroughs have amongst all human existence. it is a shortcut or laziness regardless of how it is framed.
Are you framing a shortcut as a bad thing rather than a good thing?
The logic for laziness confuses me, since the task could be of a completely arbitrary difficulty. How can it ever be lazy to not want to perform an incredibly time intensive task superfluously?
A lot of discourse surrounding why you shouldn't use AI beyond things like environmental concerns, resource consumption, and training data sourcing is just people creating a secularised version of Protestant Work Ethic from first principles.
When sewing machines got introduced, people called their users lazy and shoddy craftsman, and complained about the high number of textile workers being laid off as a direct consequence.
There really is nothing novel about AI or its protest against it, in 20-30 years people will be scared/angry about some other new technology, while AI will be as normalized as sewing machines are today.
"There really is nothing novel about AI or its protest against it"
I don't remember sewing machines being used for campaigns of misinformation or attacking servers online.
AI really is a tool on a completely different scale from anything we've had before. And our current laws and practices haven't adapted to it fast enough and it's causing legitimate issues.
If you want to view it through the lense of danger, then from my point of view there still is nothing novel about AI or its protest against it.
Resistance to nuclear energy was massive in the 70s and 80s, way higher than what AI is going through right now, and the majority of people thought of it as dirty & dangerous energy that doesn't have a place in this world.
I mean seriously, at times demonstrations against nuclear energy reached 100.000 participants per city in some countries. People occupied construction sites for weeks to prevent nuclear facilities from being built.
Human history is an endless repeat of "today's youth lost the plot", "the world is doomed" and "dangerous sciences will ruin our future".
And nuclear energy absolutely IS dangerous in and of itself. The only reason it's current safety is so reliable is because of the sheer amount of works and research that went into making it safer. And a lot of people have died to nuclear energy before we got to the point we're now.
Uh no ? The whole point of the comparison is that they are at different stages. A comparison highlight similarities but also differences.
Nuclear used to be risky until it wasn't
AI is still risky right now and won't be as risky in the future. In other word, we have to reinforce our systems before using it while it's a risk. Obviously, capitalism dictate that waiting is a bad idea but fuck capitalism.
You couldâve just said âwhy do something yourself when AI can do it fasterâ instead of making us all attend your dissertation defense
Also, calling the work âsuperfluousâ kinda assumes the creative process has no inherent value, which is a pretty bizarre position to take when weâre talking about people making things for fun.
because coding is different to art. coding can be fun and rewarding but ultimately result comes first. i say this as a CE major and people have no idea how much brainpower we are lacking in the indie scene.
i would rather the process to be a little bit assisted rather than spending 5 years on a project. in art its different cuz art is abundant, open source coding is not.
people do not understand that coding is utility first and i hate that, keep romanticizing the process while most games and past softwares are left un decomped. or while linux software is still worse and less complex than macosâs programs, surely passion will get us there!
and i dont even use ai myself cuz i like coding, but holy shit some yall are mad that we finally found a use of ai that doesnt suck??
Iâm a cybersecurity student whoâs also learning game development, and I genuinely donât understand this insistence that programming is somehow divorced from creativity.
Sure, coding serves a functional purpose, but so does architecture. That doesnât mean the process of designing and building something has no artistic or personal value.
And nobody is arguing that AI canât be useful for development. Thereâs a pretty massive difference between using it to assist with something you understand and treating the actual process of learning to program as obsolete.
Also, âopen source coding isnât abundantâ is a hell of a statement to make in a world where GitHub exists lmao.
You can advocate for better development tools without pretending that writing and understanding your own code is some antiquated hobby.
and yes i prefer writing and understanding my own code. but to say coding is a creative endeavor is like saying pumbling is one too, you just want it to work and understand why it works, elegance can come second and last.
i dont use ai, i design everything i make by scratch. but hating it is silly considering how much compute power we lack compared to the likes of microsoft or other corpos
Plumbing also involves creative problem-solving lmao. You're confusing creativity with artistic expression. They're not synonymous. The fact that you're studying engineering and apparently don't recognize engineering design as a creative discipline is genuinely fascinating.
pedantic ass response vro this one i gotta call it out. + ad hominem
i fucking love good designs in engineering and i love well written code and clever programs, and manually decomping a game for 5 years is not a part of that for me. thats why i keep my projects managable for me and avoid using ai dummy, i know what engineering creativity is.
Its like coding is the one field where your passion still doesnt mean you can do everything or should do everything by hand
âFor meâ is doing a lot of heavy lifting there lmao. Thatâs literally my point. You donât personally find that process worthwhile, and thatâs completely fine. Other people do.
Nobody is demanding you spend five years decompiling a game. Your personal preferences donât determine the creative value of someone elseâs work.
Also, disagreeing with your plumbing analogy isnât pedantry just because the analogy didnât hold up.
Plumbing can absolutely be elegant, easy to maintain and extend. If you remove creativity and desire to be better you will get shitty jobs that have to be redone with any change.
open source isnt abundant because most of the programs people use are still protected by corporations and existing in binaries to public.
we still dont have good music prod on linux that works without problems, or a photoshop equivalent thats not gimp which sucks
not ableton, not photoshop. i use bitwig sometimes but im talking about general users, if it doesnt work with some vsts or require terminal they aint gonna use it. krita is goated i agree with you.
god i use linux too i know how good it is to know my own system, but like some of yall act like most ppl are about this life like we do.
i still produce on mac because i like using vst3 and sharing them with my friends
I love how 'software development is tedious' apparently became an argument against people enjoying software development. Cooking is tedious too. Should we tell every chef they're wasting their time because DoorDash exists?
You're extrapolating and exaggerating what I said. If you're not going to discuss this in good faith, just say so and we can both save ourselves the trouble.
I said software development can be tedious, especially when it comes to decompiling and reverse engineering. There's very little fun in spending hours or days trying to decipher someone else's code, reconstruct logic, and debug things just to get them working. There's a reason you rarely saw people decompiling entire games for fun before AI started making parts of that process more accessible.
A lot of software development is also just debugging, fixing the same issues over and over, and writing repetitive code. Of course, there's plenty of enjoyment in building your own projects. That's not what I'm arguing against. I'm talking about the actual work involved in getting there, which you seem to be conflating with the satisfaction of creating something.
Comparing it to cooking or painting doesn't change that. You clearly don't know much about software development if you think the entire process is just some inherently enjoyable creative endeavor. Sometimes it is. Other times, it's tedious technical work that you'd gladly have a tool handle for you. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.
Where exactly did I say the entire process was inherently enjoyable? Youâre accusing me of bad faith while arguing against something I never said lol.
I never disputed that development can be tedious or that tools can help. My point is that people can find value in the process itself, including the difficult parts.
Also, people were reverse engineering and decompiling games for fun long before generative AI existed. Super Mario 64 ring any bells?
Yes, some people will find it fun. However, a thousand games can be decompiled by AI (massive underestimate probably) in the time it takes someone whoâs doing it for fun in their free time, and that means more people get to enjoy more games being decompiled and reap the rewards of that.
Take borderlands for example - Borderlands 2 (BL2) and The Pre-Sequel (TPS) run on the same engine. BL2 is a much better game but TPS does have really fun characters. In the last 14 years, no one has been able to add TPS characters to BL2 due to decompiling difficulties; it was widely considered impossible and no one ever thought it would happen. In the last 4-6 weeks, AI has decompiled both games enough that skilled modders are adding all TPS characters into BL2 and itâs been huge for the community and the gameâs replayability, currently modders are on 3/6 characters successfully integrated into the game. It still takes skilled programmers, but I want to emphasise this would never have happened without AI. No one was even thinking of trying due to the enormity of the task.
I hate AI for so many applications - human ideas and creativity will always beat AI - but itâs a tool with some uses that make things happen which couldnât have happened previously.
Yeah, because thatâs totally what I said lmao.
A chef using a blender doesnât suddenly stop being a chef, just like a developer using AI doesnât suddenly stop being a developer.
My entire point is that the process itself can have value beyond the finished product.
Youâre arguing against a position I never took.
Also, thanks for demonstrating that someone can use a tool to make their life easier while still enjoying the actual work. Thatâs kinda my point lol.
So following your logic, someone who isn't a chef and uses tools making cooking easier to prepare a meal is wrong by not going years using manual methods?
I wouldnât have said that because itâs a question with an easy answer. Itâs fine to want to do something AI can do faster. But itâs not inherently the right decision.
Superfluous as in, not necessary, you donât have to do it and donât gain much from doing so. With the most popular form of these AI mods, the final product isnât really anything anyone is likely to want to dedicate a notable portion of their lives to creating, as itâs not really a creative process, itâs just meshing together the work of others. Calling the easy way to complete a task nobody would willingly go out of their way to complete âproperlyâ lazy is confusing to me as humans do this constantly in their lives without a second thought, and it says nothing about how hard a worker etc that person is.
Also, calling the work âsuperfluousâ kinda assumes the creative process has no inherent value, which is a pretty bizarre position to take when weâre talking about people making things for fun.
Some of these discussions are like watching people complain that you didnât hand make your own gaming chair. Many devs are more interested in results.
From my understanding, for this to work you need both games and claude open at the same time. A mod that doesn't use claude like this would be far easier for your system( or low end systems in general) to handle, as you'd only have that game open. It is a shortcut, but i find it rather costly in terms of performance.
That isnât true, itâs not an LLM somehow stitching things together in real time, that would be completely infeasible.
It is running both games, but⌠yeah, if you want all the mechanics of both games at once then there isnât really an inherently more efficient way of doing it.
It isnât a breakthrough whatsoever, if a company had the legalities sorted they could focus on combining games but employing sufficient teams to do that will still take years and a lot of money. Which is not feasible.
I mean, weâve had people making absurdly ambitious mods for decades without generative AI. Something taking years of work doesnât suddenly make it impossible or inherently unreasonable.
And AI doesnât magically solve engine incompatibilities, integration issues, balancing, or any of the other actual technical problems involved in combining games.
âItâs faster with AIâ and âit cannot feasibly be done without AIâ are two very different claims.
something taking years of work does make it unfeasible tho. i love passion projects but like, not everyone is willing to spend most of their youth on one project yknow.
i make gadgets and is working on a camera rn, i make cool things that i code on my own, and they take 6 months each cuz some tasks are just unfeasible for a solo dev.
i donât think we should romanticize wasting your years away in a project imo. it is cool that ppl do that but it shouldnât be the only way.
Something being infeasible for you doesnât make it impossible without AI lol. Nobody said spending five years on a project should be the only way to do things.
âAI makes it fasterâ and âthis canât feasibly be done without AIâ are two completely different claims.
Also, calling time spent on someone elseâs passion project âwastedâ is pretty weird, especially when you apparently enjoy making things yourself.
One in a million = âso youâre saying thereâs a chance!!â
Letâs just replace impossible with unlikely. Especially when it comes to combining game after game after game. Youâre arguing semantics of English when you already understand the original sentiment.
No it's not laziness you are simply wrong just don't want to accept it
In order to make theese game over game mods ai had to read and change compiled code, understanding compiled code is something a human programmer simply can NOT do, it's not a matter of time or laziness you cannot read or understand compiled code, humans code stuff and then compile it, if we want to change or edit stuff we need the decompiled code which you can't get for closed source games
I don't see how this contradicts what I said. Someone who barely has any free time probably doesn't want to spend it on something that's going to take months or years. That makes it effectively infeasible
I could spend my limited free time making some shit like this for a one-off novelty. But the fact that it would likely take a significant amount of time makes it effectively infeasible.
And i hadnt seen a man plummet 16 feet until The Undertaker threw Mankind off of the cell and through the announcers table during their legendary Hell in a Cell match. I guess nobody had fallen 16 feet before then?
The problem is that it will not stay as a tool. It will become something that will do everything for you and you will become like the humans in WALL-E... brick my brick
AI trash is already consuming the whole internet. A lot of things that are made by humans that require talent, skill, discipline, emotion, authenticity and intent already get under the rug due to constant production of soulless AI slop. It will never be just a tool--It never was. The majority of people are always just looking for the easiest route which requires minimal effort. The AI is thier goldmine. Others suffer from it and at some point the idiots realize that they will suffer from it too.
The former one is human operating the tool
The latter is human letting the "tool" to do everything.
If you can't understand the difference between sewing machines and AI I don't know what to tell you. I'm not surprised though, a lot of people seem to be apathetic and accept everything nowdays. That's the rich old men's wet dream. Good for them I guess.
The problem is when the "tool" can be abused and becomes uncontrollable. Compared to most previous inventions there's also a major difference between an uncontrollabe physical and immaterial "tool", AI being an "immaterial" example. The "opinon" you had stated can be an opinion but it is quite a flawed one.
Well please enlighten me why it is flawed considering you are basing AI going out of control or taking over our lives from films. At least I have a very real example to compare to.
Check out how an autonomous OpenAI breached an australian healthcare system quite recently if you're interested. That's one example between physical and immaterial objects (so far). One is in control by humans in the physical world, the other can potentially get lost and untracked in the system--AI slop is just one "silly" consequence of it, which ironically humans have caused themselves. I think you understand the difference in capability between AI and an autonomous guided vehicle for example.
People have been porting stuff from other games to Gmod or Skyrim what do you mean you need AI.
I'm not fully anti-AI, but AI does nothing new - it does things that already could have been done, just faster (and buggier if done without human oversight).
Then make things yourself instead of pushing your values onto others ÂŻ_(ă)_/ÂŻ. I don't care if bloodborne recompiled for PC was done using AI, I care about the fact that it is playable on PC and runs well, which wouldn't have happened for years from now (if at all).
No one is hating on your opinion by saying âI donât really have a problem with itâ. Very, very few real people are talking shit on people for writing their own code, and those smug people are practically bots themselves who ALSO donât code with AI.
Then they shouldn't be made. Have you seen how much of your GPU and CPU that shit eats? It's basically running two games at once. This slop is not optimized in the slightest. All it did was steal other people's work and mash it together, because clankers can't create anything. I don't want to live in a world where everything I consume is the same media from the last 20 years put in a blender together. I want something original, something made with soul, something human, which your clanker slaves can not make.
And no, AI is not the future. AI is not here to stay. It is incredibly inneficient and the only reason it has continued to exist for this long is because of the same few companies circlejerking eachother who keep buying and selling from eachother in circles instead of providing to consumers. They are actively losing money with this shit. The AI bubble popping is not a matter of if, but of when, because this crap is not sustainable
You are entitled to your opinion but ultimately it is here to stay because when used by people who also have a background in the task being conducted using AI, they can spot problems and so using AI drives higher efficiency.
Working in a job now which is using it across engineering fields, it is amazing how much it has enabled teams to do at very low cost on short turnaround. Great for proof of concepts and quick tasks you donât need to understand in depth, but at layers where it will be implemented wider human development will be the main driver
103
u/ram_the_socket 16h ago
Unpopular opinion but the mods being made which combine games cannot feasibly be done without using AI.
Something can be enjoyed even if it is made using AI
Ultimately it is a tool which is here to stay.