r/PoursTea • u/Timbucktwo1230 šŸ«– Mod ā˜•ļø • 10d ago

Murdered By Words šŸ©ø Cornell University

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130

u/GroovyYaYa 10d ago

Yeah, not a fan of denigrating honest, hard working people.

But here is the real failure of the university with this whole thing...

In any scenario, they failed. Let us assume that the trolls are right in that she fully consented & just had buyer's remorse. (I don't believe this, but for the sake of argument)

You STILL have (a) wild gatherings at a frat house where unmanaged, unruly sex parties are going on that aren't safe or sane to the point that consent is not clear (people in the lifestyle(s) would be appalled), (b) illicit drugs and alcohol are being taken in massive quantities... and one is ketamine, and (c) your law enforcement agency is edited reports when handed over to the PA.

In all scenarios, they acted inappropriately to say the least.

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u/decisi0nsdecisi0ns 10d ago edited 10d ago

unruly sex parties are going on that aren't safe or sane to the point that consent is not clear (people in the lifestyle(s) would be appalled)

Well said. As someone who has engaged in consensual group sex before, this incident ticks pretty much every box of "What NOT to do". What is more alarming is those who seem to view this encounter as an acceptable way to engage in group sex. No, if you're engaging in sex this way, you are creating a situation where SA is likely to happen.

It seems there needs to be a lot more education for adolescents and young adults about what consent actually looks like in various sexual situations. I'm assuming many of them are getting this info from porn which is definitely not accurate.

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u/Adezar 10d ago

Yes, I know a lot of people don't realize that when it comes to things like orgies, CnC, BDSM, etc where people are living on the grey edges of our puritanical society they have much better practices around consent than your basic bar scene and definitely better than a frat party.

Granted for any non-established relationship if there are drugs/heavy drinking involved the basic rule is "Don't... there is zero reason to take the risk of the person blacking out and not remembering they gave consent and then you are dealing with a complex situation you should just avoid."

Use the basic rule of whether or not they would be legally allowed to sign a contract and be held to it in their current state. If the answer is no, then there is no viable consent and just assume anything they agreed to is legally non-binding which is why you can't be forced to sign a contract while heavily impaired.

Yes means Yes. Establish "no go zones" before having fun, to avoid coercion and make everyone safe.

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u/GroovyYaYa 10d ago

I'm not in the lifestyle, but I do read novels of a certain type and am part of a "closed" fan group for one particular author (Cherise Sinclair). Consent and safeguards (not just safewords) are an ongoing theme in her books and in the group. I've honestly learned so much!

No judgement if someone wants to get high. No judgement if someone wants to engage in group sex or other intimate acts.

You just do not combine the two.

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u/Slighted_Inevitable 10d ago

Our puritan bullshit origins have created this shroud of secrecy and shame where such things arenā€™t discussed, right up until you make it into a crime.

You could easily have done a signup and have everyone acknowledge youā€™re going to be doing substances that may limit everyoneā€™s judgement and you are all willingly engaging in the activities. For gods sake these people are at Cornell. None of them are lawyers?

As for any potential drug charges, thatā€™s a heck of a lot better than rape

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u/decisi0nsdecisi0ns 10d ago

You could easily have done a signup and have everyone acknowledge youā€™re going to be doing substances that may limit everyoneā€™s judgement and you are all willingly engaging in the activities.

I'm a bit confused about what you're implying here, can you please clarify?

You cannot legally give blanket consent for any and all future sexual activity. Joining a party where drugs are being taken (and where you are taking them) does not mean you are consenting to any specific sexual act. I hope that's not what you're suggesting here.

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u/Slighted_Inevitable 10d ago

You absolutely can setup preemptive consent for a specific situation like this. Especially where you intend to do substances or roleplay that could inhibit it.

To be clear no, Iā€™m saying she would have to have agreed she was gonna do drugs and have sex with multiple partners tonight. Everything

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u/decisi0nsdecisi0ns 10d ago edited 10d ago

That does not seem to be the case in NY, where consent legally requires it to be active, conscious and given as the sexual activity occurs. I'm not a lawyer, but if you type what you said into google and ask if that's legal in NY, the answer is no.

While establishing consent to engage in group sex prior to anything starting is important, it still doesn't imply that "anything goes". (I'm not saying that you're saying that, but I've seen several other comments along those lines elsewhere.)

Yes, individuals who intentionally put themselves in situations such as this (where drugs are being taken and there is no-one who is sober and responsible for monitoring things) are taking the risk that they could be the perpetrator or victim of sexual assault, but that doesn't absolve any assault that may occur.

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u/Kierland 10d ago

Depends on the situation but it is common to engage in group sex where the consent is to anything within someoneā€™s limits up and until the safe word is spoken.

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u/decisi0nsdecisi0ns 10d ago

That's the difference between legality and ethics though.

I think most reasonable people would agree that if everyone is doing everything they reasonably can to ensure consent within established boundaries, then it is ethically ok. That doesn't always mean that it's legal, and vice versa.

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u/Kierland 10d ago

I have never once seen anything illegal at a group event although I am sure some have drugs involved.

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u/decisi0nsdecisi0ns 10d ago

Lucky you.

I hope you're not suggesting that your experience is universal.

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u/Slighted_Inevitable 10d ago

Thatā€™s because most people who go to group events and know what they are doing and cover themselves legally. So many people still have this puritin mindset that women are innocent and donā€™t wanna have kinky fun sex with multiple partners.

Thatā€™s why you get it in writing.

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u/GroovyYaYa 10d ago

Difficult when you are being fed ketamine.

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u/Kierland 10d ago

Drugs do complicate the situation for sure, add that this encounter seems to have had zero planning, rules or respect and itā€™s an absolute shitshow.

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u/Slighted_Inevitable 10d ago

Thatā€™s why I said everything.

New Yorkā€™s laws cannot change how juries work and no one is going to convict when there is clear understanding and acceptance of everything thatā€™s going to happen before doing illicit substances.

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u/decisi0nsdecisi0ns 10d ago edited 10d ago

Hence, why I focused on legality not ethics.

I think most reasonable people would agree that if everyone is doing everything they reasonably can to ensure consent in these situations within established boundaries, then it is ethically ok (which doesn't seem to have been the case in this scenario). That doesn't always mean that it's legal, and vice versa. Therefore, engaging in it is a risk that everyone is taking (both in terms of being a victim and in being legally a perpetrator).

ETA: the reverse is also true. Legally, someone could have consented, while still feeling quite uncomfortable with the act. It being legal doesn't invalidate their feelings about the experience, and ideally that would be a learning opportunity for both them and their partner(s) for how to better establish boundaries and communication going forward.

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u/Slighted_Inevitable 10d ago

Except in this case, it would apply to both.

Again, no prosecutor is going to waste time when they know no jury is going to convict. The legal system is basically a sport to them. Itā€™s all about wins versus losses.

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u/decisi0nsdecisi0ns 10d ago edited 10d ago

I don't disagree, I'm just pointing out that it is a risk you're taking. As we've seen, public pressure can influence the legal system.

ETA: It also doesn't mean that it won't be reported to police in good faith and investigated prior to someone deciding not to proceed with charges / a trial.

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u/Specialist_Date2811 10d ago

they know women won't agree to what they were aiming for.

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u/Slighted_Inevitable 10d ago

Women can be just as hedonistic as men.

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u/GoatsAttack 9d ago

Could you give me a couple of the most obvious on the checklist of what not to do?

Never involved in anything like that so not sure if there are some go bys I am missing. Obvious red flags to me are the group chat invitation without the knowledge of jane doe and the ketamine.

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u/decisi0nsdecisi0ns 9d ago edited 9d ago

Your instincts are definitely on the mark. This is far from a comprehensive list, but some of the key things that stand out for me:

- DON'T initiate group sex conversations (particularly with new partners) while under the influence of drugs or significant alcohol. As a general rule of thumb, if someone could not legally sign a contract in their current state, they can't safely be making these types of decisions.

- DON'T start having group sex before you've had a conversation around boundaries. What is each person open to doing, what are they not open to doing, will any safe words be used, etc. This doesn't replace consent in the moment, but it's a strong foundation to ensuring consent communication is ongoing throughout the experience.

- One would have hoped this was obvious, but apparently not based on the behaviour of the men in this instance: DON'T invite anyone to join in the group sex without the knowledge and consent of those already involved.

- If you're someone who is joining in an ongoing group sex encounter, DON'T start anything until you understand what boundaries have been established, and have consent from the individuals you're engaging with. If you're trusting your friend that you have the consent of another person, you're trusting your friend with your future freedom.

- DON'T be afraid to pause/stop if something makes you uncomfortable, or if you think it might be making someone else uncomfortable. Group sex encounters are usually the best when everyone is looking out for everyone else's well-being. It also makes it much more likely that folks will want a repeat experience ;).

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u/superkp 10d ago

OK side note...

unruly sex parties are going on that aren't safe or sane to the point that consent is not clear

This phrasing just cleared something up for me. Something that I knew already, but now it's got organized words for it in my head.

Real sex parties that are good and (presumably) enjoyable for everyone involved will include a lot of rules - like, top-down, "get the fuck out if you can't act within these rules" sort of rules.

the sort of sex parties that these frat party assholes (not only cornell, and not only frats, but you get my point) imagine as being "good" sex parties is that they completely lack the sort of rules that they view as 'holding them back' - holding them back from the sort of sex they want, the sort of women they want, etc.

And this seems to be an echo of the other things that assholes seem to think that 'college life' is about. No rules stopping you from drinking, using drugs, bedtimes, etc, etc, and crucially for all of this, rules around sex. I imagine that nearly all highschool kids also have their parents giving them some sort of rules around sex while they are living at home.

and I don't think I had actually thought about it in this way before: these sex-pest parties (or at least parties where the sex pests get up to their pesting, but that's splitting hairs) are advertised as basically 'here, you can get everything you want with no repurcussions' instead of real sex parties, which obviously have many rules that you are encouraged to play within.

I think that this might be part of why we see so many douchebags are reflexively coming to the defense of the cornell 7 and their ilk - they see someone getting to 'play' in the way they want to be able to play, and don't want our culture to change such that they can have their 'play space' outside the rules. Their play space is threatened, and they want to maintain the status quo that protects it.

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u/slothbear02 9d ago

Frat culture is just r@pe culture

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u/Kierland 10d ago

Keith Olbermann, a Cornell alum, dragged the hell out of the administration on his pod on Monday and not once did Waffle House or any go go bars catch a stray.

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u/slothbear02 10d ago

And even if we consider she is lying FOR THE SAKE OF IT, there are still the Snapchat chats, them basically p*mping her out and sharing non-consensual images, and then lying to her when she asked where the other men came from. There are chats that show this isn't their first rodeo.

What I don't understand is, at a place for education, why is alcohol allowed? I also read that sororities aren't allowed to host parties or have alcohol so the only way they can attend parties is by going ot frat parties - the whole system is set up for rape culture. Then there is the thing about not letting students stay in sorority houses for classes during holidays because it will be seen as 'pr*stitution' but men are allowed to stay at frats.

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u/Distinct-Tour5012 10d ago

In complete agreement.

Whatever happened that evening, and I'm sure there will be more twists and turns given how things have been going, it's a complete failure to clamp down on and control frat culture.

More importantly it's a complete policy failure that, even if the DA doesn't prosecute a case given the merits, the university can't point to everything they did proudly to say "look how far we went - everything's above board". They can't do that right now as questions loom over how they handled this.

Even if it's a "fake" case, the university should take it extremely seriously, pass everything to the DA, and if they think students have broken codes of conduct in anything 10 miles from sexual assault, they need to be gone - even if it's "fake" (it's not worth it for the university to have drug fueled frat sex parties even if everything is consensual).

Giving the impression of impropriety is often just as bad as actual impropriety.

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u/JustWow52 10d ago

Extremely valid take

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u/AnaesthetisedSun 10d ago edited 10d ago

What can a university do about young people having group sex and taking drugs? And what should it do?

It feels like a lot of the outrage around this is because it is societally unacceptable behaviour rather than because it is sexual assault

Drugs and group sex is private behaviour and although unusual, not morally wrong

This really should hinge on whether this was consensual and not on whether some people act at the fringes of societal norms

Obviously some things in this instance point to it being non consensual, and unacceptable modes of group sex. Thatā€™s fine. Argue that point. We canā€™t argue that a university is responsible for all drug taking and group sex that happens to its students. That seems untenable and a knee jerk over reach.

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u/Specialist_Date2811 10d ago edited 10d ago

frats are official school organizations and are held to strict anti drug policies (well...getying formally reported for drugs is a big deal I should say). Drugs were often taken more seriously than SA because there was no ambiguity, there is no legal version of illicit drug use. It is unequivocally against the law and school policy, consent is an irrelevant concept

I got assaulted at a frat party and they were really nervous cause I had clearly been over served. reporting SA could lead to scrutiny of the party which could get their right to hold parties suspended. nobody wants to pledge a frat that can't hold parties. some straight up make money off some of them, the sorority they partner with will be piiiiiiiiissed. frets at my school we're getting their shit together if only cause the school was cracking down on party privilege.

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u/[deleted] 10d ago

Group sex? Oh, were the men also having sex with each other and advertising ā€œfree dickā€ on the group text for their frat bros to come up and enjoy?

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u/real-bebsi 10d ago

a threesome is group sex even if the men don't touch each other just FYI

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u/[deleted] 10d ago

I understand, but thatā€™s not what this was.

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u/AnaesthetisedSun 10d ago edited 10d ago

Unclear if you can read?

The point is the reason this would be wrong is if it was unconsensual or immoral group sex, not just purely for being group sex, and I feel like those things are getting mixed up

You could even argue thatā€™s a damaging take if this was non consensual, as itā€™s conflating something socially unacceptable with something immoral and illegal

Edit: clear that some people have a narrative they want to overlay here so just to be clear: ā€˜take these kids to court for non consensual sex - not for having group sexā€™. Hopefully thatā€™s clear enough. Parent comment seems to suggest parties and group sex are bad and Iā€™m not sure thatā€™s a healthy conflation / might actually water down whatā€™s wrong here

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u/[deleted] 10d ago

I will say this is the most insidious (and most condescending) take yet Iā€™ve seen on this assault.

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u/GroovyYaYa 10d ago

I do not suggest anything of the kind.

I think you missed my use of adjectives, which are important. "Unmanaged, unruly" and where drug and alcohol use is rampant.

I'm not kink shaming at all. I would never do that.

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u/starkestrel 10d ago

Schools can absolutely dictate, monitor, and manage fraternity/sorority behavior. Drug- and alcohol- fueled sex parties can be banned by the school, as can parties over a certain size, etc. Schools do not have to allow fraternity/sororities. They also own most student housing, and can dictate and monitor behavior as both landlords and learning institutions.

Schools do not need to allow predatory behavior from their students and tenants.

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u/AnaesthetisedSun 10d ago

I guess what Iā€™m saying is that seems pretty un-liberal and knee-jerk-y

Feels analogous to banning festivals because ā€˜theyā€™re a bit wildā€™, because out of 100 million people that went to festivals last year, 1000 engaged in illegal action

Surely be as careful as you can about prosecuting the people who did the illegal things