For the past week, it was. But for the 17th of October, they called for many other groups to join, from different jobs and political backgrounds. It's a general thing here, they're tired of this dystopian future, there isn't much of revendications here.
I'm pretty sure I don't see such destruction in other Western European countries and they're still doing fine, some even slightly better. So it's probably not due to this nonsense.
No one is doing fine. Our wages are stagnant, the cost of everything is rising, we can barely afford a tank of gas, the oligarchs drink champagne while we starve, their police dogs maim our kids for daring to protest rats in their classrooms, our healthcare system is being sold for parts, fascism is on the rise, a law prohibiting carcinogenic fertilizers was repealed, and if we don't implement radical change the human race will be extinct in a century.
Dude, I think you're a bit too much online. Read a bit of history to understand how much progress was necessary to get to the current level of development and try to evaluate how it'd be living at any other time in history. Then try to look up some global stats, e.g. at the UN, the World Bank, or the IMF, so that you can see the huge progess even in the last 100 years.
Yes, in the past few years there is some economic stagnation, especially in Europe, but it's far from being as dramatic as you describe it (especially bc if you were really starving then you'd have already sold your phone to get food, but nevermind). I understand that short term problems can also feel frustrating, but this alarmism is more destructive than helpful.
Trying to lecture me about history with Sarkozy in your username is hilarious. I know history better than you. Go play with your crayons and leave the adults alone.
Sure mate, it's so educated to think this kind of name only exists in France. Turning to insults and playing the ad hominem card is what real adults do, I see.
Idk if you're French and having some misplaced patriotism, but personally I am French and I really don't feel like it's one of the best place. A few years ago I thought really high of it, nowadays not so much. It's also due to problems beyond France, but I'd say the future is very bleak.
And while it may be still a pretty good country to live in, I don't think it's a reason to stop at that.
This young generation knows that if they do nothing, they'll have their retirement around 85 years old, and suffer summers with 50°C.
Not sure where you get this information from. E.g. France's debt to GDP is nowhere near the highest and debt to GDP alone cannot tell you whether a country is soon going bankrupt or not, but I'm sure you're an expert on the topic since violent rioting is usually the kind of remedy that national banks recommend in times of financial crises. Could you explain to me how destroying your own cities lifts the burden of international indebtedness off a country?
France is currently in a serious debt crisis. This information is well reported and common knowledge. Destroying property and assets only increases this. That is how maths work.
ps_ i never proclaimed to be an expert in anything but it seems you are? 😂
I don't think there's much of a solution, but personally I'd start with taxing multi billionaires rather than letting them do tax fraud because they supposedly "make the economy" and "create jobs", which are false ideas, they'll spend their fortune to make sure not a dime falls back on the average worker and they do about everything to replace us with AI.
This has nothing to with being French or not, the same thing could be said about almost any Western European country as they're roughly the same in terms of relative welfare.
People would benefit a lot from (1) learning about history and (2) learning about the overall state of the world and what was and is "normal"/average for living conditions.
I'm not saying they should stop there, but fighting and destroying your infrastructure when not having enough welfare was your problem in the first place is completely idiotic and a waste of resources. There are better ways to make developments...
I agree that it's seemingly stupid but honestly, in France, it's kinda the only way to get heard. I'm kinda indifferent towards it. It's mostly done by uneducated young people but again the government has discarded and ignored them for so long, it's not surprising they're uneducated and angry
Sure, I think that's a fair assessment. Also, I agree that the citizens rioting are not the only ones at fault because the government is supposed to take care of everyone. I'm just saying it's overall a stupid situation that could be handled better from both sides.
It's funny having lived in France and having 99% of people inside and outside ignore that Bainlieues exist when they're easily 1/3 of the country and have absolutely atrocious conditions, and consequentially all of these protests are starting from them (for obvious reasons)
Those conditions are still better than the conditions of hundreds of millions of people in the world.
Also, makes total sense to force your government to spend money on repair and reconstruction when not having enough welfare was the problem in the first place. Not a waste of resources at all.
Unfortunately, I had to make too many replies too soon and it's not nuanced enough. In another reply I wrote that of course, the current relatively high level of welfare (in worldwide comparison) doesn't mean that French people shouldn't strive for more. My point is that if that's the goal than this rioting is not helpful because it's a waste of resources. Similarly, for the government it's also a waste of resources to spend a lot on antiprotest efforts instead of actually fixing the problems people complain about. I also wrote this elsewhere that I think both sides are at fault in this situation, but in my opinion a peaceful solution where stuff doesn't get destroyed and people don't get injured (or worse) is desirable over the current "solution".
As a French person, you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. Do some deep research before giving your opinion on such serious matter or sybau.
Yk, it's just a bit difficult to debate agruments that are missing. I wasn't asking for you to educate me, I was asking for your opinion so that we can discuss the differences.
It sure was, and still is, but things are getting worse by the year. Every public service is getting worse, medical access is getting worse, less jobs, higher price for everything, people are told they're gonna have to famine a bit to pay the debt created over the 25 last years (which is true to some extent), while richer french families are getting exponentially richer.
not to mention every other dystopian shits that affect every other countries like wars, climate, ia and so on
I'm not questioning the perception of things as such, but I do hold that this is a misconception of the current state of the world. The reason why we often see it the way you describe is more psychological than based on real data. If you have time and curiousity, I recommend reading Factfulness by Hans Rosling (found this PDF quickly), which gives a good hint on why we perceive phenomena the way we do.
Sure mate, that probably sucks, but this doesn't negate either of the points, since this is still better than the a huge number of current regions' conditions and better than any other historical condition. Classrooms as a generally available public service itself is a super new thing relative to human history.
As I wrote in my other comments, of course this doesn't mean that better outcomes shouldn't be strived for. But in my opinion once the situation is put into context, a more peaceful and cooperative solution should be taken. I also wrote this and agree that the government is also at fault, since they need to fix the problem of people, not spend money on antiprotest efforts.
Because people have it worse than you is not an argument to accept your own situation. That's a stupid ass argument. "Oh your manager is toxic ? You know in Bangladesh they earn 1 dollar and day and breath toxic fumes sooo can you really complaint?" YES AND YOU SHOULD! Fostering apathy has been the strategy of dominant capitalist classes for 200 years and they are right to shit themselves when the people gets sick of not being heard.
And also: yes France is absolutely turning into a dystopia on many accounts: far right billionaires own virtually all private media, the police uses illegal tactics without consequences, ai algorithmic mass surveillance.
Dude, the 1st sentence of my second paragraph was that they shouldn't just accept the current status, and then you go on ranting a full paragraph saying that they shouldn't just accept it. Like, okay, cool? What's the point?
You said that France is one of the best places on earth to live, implying that protesting is not justified and that it isn't turning dystopian. Then to the rats comment you said that it doesn't invalidate your two points because it's still better than elsewhere. To which I responded because this is not a valid argument, it's a fallacy.
The condition of other people does not preclude you from protesting (that you claim to agree), and it does not preclude you from doing so with force after years of not being heard.
Criticizing the form of the protest is the rulers' strategy because when it turns violent they can no loncer avoid addressing the issues they don't want to address. So instead they change the narrative. Yes it's a riot, but at some point there must be ones. This is how we got weekends off, social rights, voting rights for women, the end of segregation and of slavery (for the US). It's unfair to discard the protests because they are not peaceful and cooperative when peaceful and cooperative has been tried and the French government keeps refusing to work with the left even though they won the past legislative elections and force the passing of laws without parliament majority (49.3). They do not want to be peaceful and in fact it is the police are the one provoking the violence in the first place. If you beat up for no good reason saying racist shit, of course you are gonna see angry people fighting back.
Yes, it doesn't invalidate my points because it's not dystopian to live in a country which is still better than most other countries and better than it has ever been for virtually anyone else beforehand. That's just factually true. I didn't say that protesting is not justified, but surely protesting has its levels. Destruction and looting (I know, not everyone is involved, but still, there are enough videos) are on the extreme side in my opinion.
Tbh, I don't have too deep knowledge about how the French parliament developed over the last decade in terms of relative nr. of seats etc., my confusion is just that if there are so many unhappy people who are also aware of the problem, how come that the legislative branch is so fucked up that they don't change anything? In my country, we had a similar issue, but there much of the public was deceived for many years and that's why the parliament didn't change. There wasn't as much public awareness or agreement on problems as in France there seems to be.
And following from this, when I see such large unhappy groups of people, my first thought is always, well guys, just vote in the "right" (I know, not too bad) politicians and change the legislations. I know, it's not that simply, I'm merely trying to express that the situation seems super weird for me and doesn't make much sense. But again, I'm not there, perhaps I'd feel different "on the front line".
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u/patriotfanatic80 10h ago
And this is about not enough teachers and unfunded school infrastructure?