It's all overly shredded men with insane proportions doing ridiculous poses.
I think another angle of it is that men aren't as against being sexualized and unless it overtly appeals to them because their gay/bi. they just gloss over it. Conan, jojo, fist of the north star, "manime" in general, etc.
If you find no appeal in the male form like me, this shit is just cool. Im just aware that this is kind of the same thing as above.
Almost naked greasy buff dudes doing goofy poses while doing stereotypical manly things, with their junk regularly emphasized.
edit: I want to add a little addendum to this.
If you read this whole mess of a thread, i think (or atleast I hope) you might take away not so much as changing your entire world view, but rather the nuance of what I'm trying to get across.
I have my opinions, you have yours, but i hope at the very least the nuance of it is something that can be communicated. Even within this thread I have reached agreeable conclusions with those i was debating.
At the end of the day I suppose the only thing we can ever take away is our own conclusions.
That is an excellent point. But the same is true of men, but we can still tell when something is designed with the goal of sex appeal.
In Arakis case the first half of Jojo is classic buff protagonist power fantasy stuff. While the second half is designed to appeal to his specific love of fashion.
It can be hard to tell the difference between art designed for sex appeal and art as power fantasy but as someone who's seen a bit of deliberate sexualisation of men in her time, I can tell you Jojo's ain't it.
It's a complicated topic. Sex appeal itself is kind of inherently gendered a lot of the time. Which is why it's really hard to depict men as sexually appealing without it coming across a little bit gay.
If you're okay with that happening you can lean into it and go full bara. Which is unmistakably gay and unmistakably sexual. But it's very tricky to do it without it being a bit queer.
This was kinda frankly my opinion too but as a cis het man I don't feel as inclined to voice it
But it does genuinely feel like what is considered a "sexualized" male character for the female gaze typically tends to just be masculine male bodies encased with typically "feminine" tropes, like soft facial features or scantily clad revealing clothes or what a cishet man might consider "gay"
There is a certain irony in the idea that both straight men and straight women ultimately are sexually attracted to feminine traits, just on different types of bodies
Yep, and the main audience for yaoi is women do not like we need to get caught up on jojo here (wich actually has tons of female viewers like any shounen the last 30 years btw)
Women's first experience with being sexualized is nearly getting kidnapped from the mall at age 12, men's first experience with being sexualized is just not a thing that happens for 80% of men. And even really hot men that do get objectified or sexualized are generally safe when they are.
It's just a completely different average life experience.
Yeah, go read the comments under the ample news stories of e.g. female teachers statutory raping their students. It's all full of "He should be happy", "What a lucky kid" and so on.
It's not seen as "being sexualized" but as "being lucky". So of course, if you frame it like that, nothing bad ever happens to men.
I think that's super valid at a macro level and probably explains a lot of women's feelings. At a micro level, it doesn't always hold water.Ā
I, a male, was sexualised a lot from maybe the age of 14 by parents of my friends and even extended family. It wasn't comfortable. I was groped a lot. A lot of sexual comments.Ā
That was my experience. Similar to the female experience in some regards. I don't feel any hate or injustice when men are portrayed like super buff unrealistic figures. I just think it looks cool.Ā
In my experience, it's all an individual experience for how people feel about the media portraying unrealistic body image. I wonder sometimes if I had a large network of other boys that were sexualised, like women do, that I might have a different opinion.Ā
1 in 6 men have been SAed. What you experienced wasn't a "woman experience", it's simply the reality for SO MANY children regardless of their gender.
What happened to you isn't lesser just because you're a man. Being molested isn't "the female experience". It's just something that happens.
š« It sucks seeing people minimize it happening to men or outright saying it doesn't happen, but you are valid in your experience. Never stop talking about it because the more you talk about it, the more comfortable other men will be in doing the same. Creating that network starts with talking about it.
I think another perspective is that men find appeal regardless in being sexualized because it's commonly seen as aspirational.
The ladies man was a stereotype for a reason.
You know the phrase "women want to fuck him, men want to be him". Yeah that's kinda the thing about JoJo.
I don't want to fuck any of the JoJo protags, but hell I'd love to be as musclebound as Jonathan, as cool headed as Jotaro, as suave as Joseph, and as determined as Giorno.
If your not attracted to them, they are presented as very aspirational. Most men who are presented as appealing are.
Is it a ridiculous standard, still yes, but that doesn't change the fact that it's still a thing.
It's just glossed over because Men stand from the opposite end because men are told they ought to be like this. They will have their dreams come true if they can meet this standard.
Its not because it's safe, it's because it's what all kinds of media tells us we are expected to be. He-man, Conan, Bond, JoJo, comics, etc.
I think avoiding that both versions of this are kinda bad for their respective gender, not just sexualizing women, is why toxic masculinity has dug as deep as it has.
And I love JoJo but I know that dudes genuinely do model themselves after these kinds of characters, and we don't have a million faces coming out of the wood work to tell us that it's wrong, that we shouldn't be destroying ourselves to meet an impossible standard.
You can't put the shoe on the other foot without checking the size first. And frankly I don't think most men can fill em' despite desperately wanting to.
No one is saying that men aren't also victims of the patriarchy in exactly the way your outlined, just that they don't get sexualized in the way women do.
To be honest, I don't even know what it would look like for men to be sexualized in this way. Why don't women sexualize men in this way, and what would it look like if they did? There are plenty of heterosexual female artists and writers, so why aren't they interested in sexualizing men this way?
They do, it is just in writing or yaoi or something. Judging from my female friends it tends to be smut, some sort of gay manga, or creating characters that they mod to have sex with each other in a mmo or something like that.
I think you likely haven't looked super hard then. For one example, Fifty Shades of Grey broke into the mainstream and got a trilogy of movies. With a little more searching, you start running into the erotica subgenre of novels, which includes such gems as seen below.
it's not considered aspirational because it's sexual though, it's considered aspirational because it's powerful. The power to physically engage something, the power to get the women they want, the power to not be held down by rules. The same could not happen with women because in the eye's of society women's power isn't valued, women aren't people, they're trophies- that's why women can be freely sexualized in media as a treat for the viewer but a woman being sexual in real life is called a slut and is looked down on when the same generally doesn't happen with men.
I agree to an extent that this isn't good for men either, the issue is it's harmful for different reasons, and when they're treated as the same it's often in service of minimizing the harm to women rather than highlighting the harm to men.
You have a point that the difference is power. Though I will argue that many sexualized characters are still shown as powerful.
That being said, I think those elements are kind of hand in hand and irregardless of how they spin:
they both still hurt people by presenting an impossible image that causes a ton of damage when one inevitably can't match it.
With the problem being we don't have anyone calling this out to the same extent. Its wrong for women to be presented that way, but like this comic, people are more than willing to go to bat for it, where men facing this issue get much more scrutiny if not vitriol.
I don't think either are ok, nor do i believe womens struggles with it should be minimized to prop up the other side of the issue,
i just think men ought to get more help in this corner of the issue, without minimizing what women go through with being sexualized as well.
There are some, yeah, but it's usually in spite of them being sexual not because of it- always exceptions to the rule obviously.
I do get what you're saying, the issue is most men don't identify the issue on their end, unfortunately. They just see the men as powerful and cool and that's it, that's a part of the patriarchy we have to contend with- even though men are also hurt by the patriarchy, the framing of it makes men out to be on top even though those who are are actually on top are a smaller group of wealthy and powerful people, men just disproportionately have a more power than women in comparison and that makes it harder to see the problems.
im not presenting it as a good thing, im presenting it as something that we are infact dealing with and have been.
look across media from the past 50 years. really earlier with stuff like dick tracy.
An emotionless strong shell of a man with chiseled features and boundless strength that solves the case gets the girl and can't form attachements with anybody, as he beats and shoots the bad guys.
Its the same stuff and its what we give to kids to be their heroes, who they want to become.
Thats entirely dependent on the content you choose to consume and the culture you happen to be born in but im not interested in your hypothesis. I have a son and the generalizations youre promulgating contribute to headlines about teachers raping young boys and adult men who cannot report assaults against them by men or women.Ā
If you can't make your point without falsely speaking on behalf of all men, then its probably not a good point.Ā
thats part of the problem, and I agree its a problem.
your assuming im in support of this generalization, and not that im pointing out its present and does infact affect people and cause the exact issues your describing.
Almost every guy I know is a victim of CSA or sexual harassment as a minor. You're making life worse for victims by weaponizing what we go through for gender war shit. It's fucking disgusting. Just stop.
Acknowledging that men are uncomfortable being sexualized is NOT an attack on NORMAL women. It's just an attack on women who feel entitled to sexualize strangers but don't want to be associated with who they deem "the villain".
I was an infant the first time I was sexualized. My mother still talks about it like it's funny. I've been SAed more than once this year alone.
My partner's mother was, and is, a sex addict. He's a victim of CSA and SA.
My brother is a victim of CSA.
Statistically, 1 in 6 men ADMIT to experiencing SA and men are significantly more likely to minimize their own experiences.
I promise you, you know a LOT of male victims but because you say shit like this, they simply don't feel comfortable telling you about it because they know the first thing you'll do is compare them to a woman.
This seems a bit like arguing for the sake of arguing? He still said about 20% of men experience sexual assualt, which is more than your 1 in 6 even. And yeah, on average, men are in a safer position when women when SA happens, and on a societal level these are issues of a completely different magnitude. I don't think it's useful to male SA victims to do this whole song and dance every time someone makes that distinction, rather than putting that energy into something more fruitful.
Edit: before I get a ton of arguments about me not getting it, let me get this out of the way. I'm a trans woman. Before my transition, I was SA'd. When I was 13, I was alone on the bus. An old man came to sit next to me. Cornered me. Groped me and touched me throughout the bus ride. I remember how scared I was, shooting glance upon glance of desperation to the bus driver who did nothing. It was horrible. I know a lot of men who have gone through the same, and many others much much worse. And they should get the support they need.
But ever since I came out as a trans woman, I've had experiences similar to that, and a lot scarier, much more frequently.
Hey, just want to point out that the sexual assault you experienced isn't what is counted in that 1 in 6 figure for men (or, similarly, the 1 in 4 figure for women). That 1 in 6 figure is for rape specifically, not just sexual contact.
For men and women, the rates of sexual contact of any kind shoot way up, with women hitting a staggering 80% and men at 40%. Many think the number of men is way lower than is reported, due to social factors. I know I'm terrified to experience the sexual assault I experienced as a teen because I know people are judgy, especially since 2 out of 3 perpetrators were girls.
The figure for men is actually higher than 40% now depending on the study you look at for it. It gets higher every year with more awareness about it coming out.
I'm trans masc, you can stfu about women "having it worse". Being a trans woman doesn't make you any less sexist.
It's 1 in 4 women vs 1 in 6 men and men are less likely to admit it. The numbers for BOTH are said to be much higher.
NO you're not "safer" as a man when getting FUCKING RAPED.
On a SOCIETAL LEVEL rape is equally bad and men having a harder time reporting it and often not being taken seriously when they do, because they're men, doesn't mean it doesn't happen to them just as often.
If someone is willing to rape you, they're are equally willing to kill you if they think you'll say something.
If a man is raped and murdered, you won't be able to tell unless they were also sodomized.
Rape is often about control and control over a man carries more weight than control over a woman. You're also less likely to get caught and can defend yourself easier than if you'd have raped a woman. There is more incentive to rape a man.
I have been raped twice this year.
I'm genderfluid and refuse to have sex in boy mode because I REFUSE to get raped as a man. I isolate that experience to me as a woman. If I am boy moding I stay in a powerful position or otherwise return to the state of being a woman.
You are hurting ALL victims by minimizing how often rape happens to ALL PEOPLE.
We need equal protections or we end up ALL suffering for it.
I'm not saying you're safer as a man than as a woman when you get raped.
What you went through is horrible and I'm not saying you don't deserve the same protection women do because you're trans masc.
But on a societal level, the sheer levels of magnitude and safety we are talking about between men and women is different on the subject of SA as a whole. You can ignore that for ideological purposes if you want, I can understand why you would in the position you are in. But I'm also not gonna pretend they are the same.
Im not appealing, im short and overweight and i have had multiple times where i got uncomfortable with people. The worst time when a woman was literally rubbing her ass on me up and down on my crotch.
Like i 100% agree women have it worse dont get me wrong. But to just say it doesnt happen to 80% of men is just outright not true.
Agree on it being a much higher degree among women and to a much more dangerous degree.
Don't agree with it being so uncommon among men that less than 20% of men ever experience it at all and when they do they're generally safe, multiple times in university I had male friends leave the dance floor cause women they didn't like were groping them. They just don't report things like that when it happens.
It's really not the same though, as you said, you just find it cool, because it is cool. Tell me what's cool about a school girl crashing into a guy and then accidentally sitting on his face. The issue isn't that characters are shown as sexy, the issue is how it's done
Ignoring the obvious scene where avdol and Joseph are forced to hump each other in public to the glee of a female antagonist.
Tell me what's cool about a school boy being intimidated and licked by a mafioso?
It's not ok for women to be put through disgusting shit like this, why would it be ok for men? Despite being equally uncomfortable for the characters in it.
Maybe it's because media tells us we ought to get over it.
It still happens but we are just "supposed" to get over it and move on.
And I'm not saying the former is ok, just when it happens to the latter it's not really called out because it's between two dudes. It still happened.
The how it's done is just that it's a boy getting licked, but Giorno was almost going to be a girl in part 5. Would it still be ok?
As a JoJo fan and a man liker, the humping scene was obviously intended to be humourous so that's a bad example.
There definitely are things like sexual poses and revealing outfits and the occasional fanservice, but the characters aren't reduced down to sex objects in the same way female characters often are
Yeah half the time it's a comedy. Most animes if you ACTUALLY watch anime don't have much fan service.
If you're fucking weird and watch fan service heavy anime, keep it to yourself. Usually those are presenting all the guys as sex obsessed perverts which is a negative portrayal of men as well.
It being a joke doesn't make either one any less harmful.
When Giorno is being licked, are we supposed to be turned on, or are we supposed to feel uncomfortable? They aren't being presented as a piece of meat for the audience to drool over.
the character being assaulted and is visibly creeped out and isn't blushing like and anime schoolgirl? Whether you're turned on or not, I feel like it's plainly obvious the intent of the scene
Even if its not meant to be sexual, random shit can turn people on... see vore for example, someone doesnt just become a vorarephile from being exposed to such content, one is develops the attraction towards the idea of consuming another or being consumed and so media that includes that can end up being a turn on regardless if it intended to do so
There is 0 sexual tension in that scene whatsoever. It's an uncomfortable scene but not sexual. Furthernore, none of the character in Jojo (including Jolyne!), are ever put in contexts in which the viewer can ogle them. The poses and outfits make them feel like cool models (which checks out since he references a lot of poses from Vogue and other fashion magazines), rather than them being sexualized. The male Jojo cast is definitely unique in how it consists of beautiful men that Araki isn't afraid to androgynize, however that's not the same as being sexualized.
Just to be sure, but are you a gay man? Because as a bisexual, saying that JoJo, or that scene, don't have any sex appeal... Ehhh, I really can't agree
I'm bi, it's true that there is 'sex appeal' to the characters in Jojo, but they also aren't being sexualized. Something having sex appeal just means it's sexually attractive, something being sexualized is it having its sexual characteristics pushed to the forefront with the intention of making someone horny- as the person above said, they're just made to look like fashion models
The scene is made to be weird, not sexually suggestive. Giorno isn't portrayed as submissive, he's portrayed as sweaty and weirded out. He reacts logically and a bit neutrally, not sexually charged. Bruno isn't portrayed as perverse in a sexual way, rather as predatory and eccentric. He's not domineering, he's threatening and odd. I'm a straight woman. I love a hot guy as much as the next girl but this ain't it.
Depending on the context, exactly. And this isn't one. Not to mention that artistic intent is crucial here as anything else is personal interpretation. From the way this scene is contextualized, personally I don't think Araki wanted it to be sexually suggestive.
Can I suggest It might be a YourOpinion/Preferenceā¢ case? Because many of the things you said, in certain cases, can be pretty sexual. The scene Is meant to be weird, true, but people can find sexual even the mundane, so this Is really Easy to find exciting
Depending on the context, exactly. And this isn't one. Not to mention that artistic intent is crucial here as anything else is personal interpretation. From the way this scene is contextualized, personally I don't think Araki wanted it to be sexually suggestive.
Im kind of approaching this from the outside in here, and I definitely see the two as pretty comparable.
Like every fucking villain is either half naked at all times, or gets naked.
This is clearly trying to appeal to someone.
but also, if giorno was a woman, like he was almost going to be, would this scene be seen as sexualized, even if it played out the exact same?
Giorno WAS modeled after a woman for pretty much all of his poses. He isn't but its kinda clear that the design elements of making him a woman were very much in there regardless.
Im pointing out that its a discrepancy about how these sorts of things are treated when its done to men.
The nakedness is a non argument because there is such a thing as non sexual nudity which Araki does great. Giorno being modeled after a woman doesn't make him more inherently sexualized, it makes him more androgynous and if the Bruno licking scene played out the EXACT SAME WAY if Giorno was a woman, it still wouldn't be sexualized.
exactly, if Giorno make a cutesy blushing face, they made a separate camera angle to get right into the action, and they lingered on it then we could get an argument for it being sexualized. In this case it just happened and the scene moved forward having achieved the progression it needed
They kinda do actually, atleast the camera angle thing.
but i guess that anime only, and its up to interpretation how much a manga panel "lingers" and the colorized version he does look like he's blushing, eh.... semantics....
I kinda meant like, camera angle closeup on his tongue as he licks him (the action), and having the *action* linger, like him physically licking him lasting longer
The action was sexual, the scenes framing was not sexualized.
Actually, I think a great example of scenes being sexual but not sexualized are a bunch of scenes in Goodnight Punpun. At a part near the beginning of the manga Punpuns uncle leers at a nurse- he stares at her ass, which is a sexual act, but the manga doesn't go to great lengths to contour out the shape of her butt for the viewer, it's just kind of there. It's sexual, but not sexualized
There's literally one Jojo, but countless anime that objectify women. One example with some very minimal "manservice" doesn't erase the countless shows that exist specifically to sexualize women.
"one jojo" kind of washes away that Jojo is one of the largest manga/anime franchises ever with art pieces in the fucking Louve.
It is probably one of the most culturally prolific pieces of media in its home country, and has only begun to see similar success here just people have begun to appreciate it from the modern anime. (because its not even the first time jojo was made into an anime, its the 4th time)
there are million random washaway animes that don't get more than a single season while doing shit like that, there is only ONE jojo.
That doesn't take away from the majority of modern anime being created for a male gaze. I love anime, but don't watch very much because a lot of it is goonslop. I don't want to take away from Jojo making it to the Louvre, which is amazing. There are other non-goonslop anime out there too, but they don't erase the goonslop
how is it goalpost-moving if what the very post critisises is that "sexualised" male designs are often still geared towards straight men more than they are towards straight women or queer men
that being said, jojo's is an exception to the rule, by having the male characters sexualised, and yet the female characters are still sexualised as well, unlike a lot of media that only sexualise the women and make the men appeal to male power fantasies instead
Abusing steroids can basically cut your lifespan in half. Being skinny isn't halfway as dangerous unless we are talking anorexia, which no one considers attractive
Why do you have to claim one is worse? Restrictive eating can easily lead to anorexia even if being severely underweight is not your initial goal. And women abuse laxatives and appetite suppressants in the same way men abuse steroids. Again, Iām not saying one is worse for your health than the other as I donāt factually know which is worse or if one even is worse, Iām just questioning why you feel the need to do that?
Because OP is minimizing one and overemphasizing the other. Tbf I don't really consider either male or female oversexualizing in media to be much of a problem. Also I do think most female bodies in media are achievable by just not over eating and healthy life style, while male physiques need rigorous lifting and dieting for multiple years or steroids, which many male action movie actors are clearly using but isn't nearly as media worthy as if movie execs would require a female to be anorexic (which doesn't really even happen)
Jojo isn't male sexualization by a long shot. It's pure male fantasy, just of a different sort than we see most of the time. This is not necessarily negative, Jojo is a great show, but that still doesn't change the fact that they simply aren't sexualized. They're never put in fan service situations at the same rate as the women in other animes, every sexual innuendo is a comedic moment (Giorno and Mista dick sucking misunderstanding and Avdol and Joseph magnetic gay sex episode), they're just very charismatic with a nice build. Men want to come across as Jojo characters, but would they want to come across as a buff bara manga protagonist? In the same way women would love to be like Bayonetta but not like a big boobed anime girl whose only point is getting groped (like Elizabeth from 7 deadly sins).
Jojo was made in the 70's and 80's. Eras in time in which it was genuinely normal for men to wear crop tops and short shorts. Dio there on the left and right is a classic 80s design. Gyro is a weirdo who's licking steel balls, he looks like he's on a fashion shoot, not genuinely sexualized. Compare this to literally any iseaki female character. Compare this to Eve from Stellar Blade. I find it so funny that some men allegedly agree on this subject that men lack sexualization and then will proceed to deny what women and queer people find attractive in this subject.
I find it so funny that some men allegedly agree on this subject that men lack sexualization and then will proceed to deny what women and queer people find attractive in this subject.
Yes, me as a straight woman that finds men attractive is denying what other women and queer people find attractive, surely. Not to mention the comment I made was about anime and manga framings of these characters, not their designs. You can find Jojo characters attractive, hell I do, and still say they aren't sexualized because the medium doesn't portray them as so, but as beautiful.
Well it may not be what the manga/anime WANTS to do, but it does it anyway. You can't say JoJo's doesn't sexualize some of it's characters when you get DIO lying in bed with a prostitute or Giorno looking like he's sucking Mista off.
Mista and Giorno moment was intended as comedy, undeniably so. The anime and manga want to portray them as beautiful and charismatic characters, hence Dio lying in bed with a prostitute or all of the characters posing dramatically. Compare that with the fanservice and contextual portrayal of 90% female characters in shonen anime.
Female character fanservice does nothing for me though because I just want to do the "Everyone get in the car" meme but instead of a fence, I'm falling on Joseph's miniature Joestar.
How is that relevant to the conversation? You're answering questions no one asked. Yes, you can find Jojo characters attractive we get it. They are made with the intention of being beautiful and I find them to be nice looking too. However, no, they're not sexualized and neither does the manga nor anime put them in sexualized contexts or portrayals. The 2 exceptions are explicitly comedy.
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u/jbyrdab 14h ago edited 10h ago
I mean if we wanna be fair.... Araki...
It's all overly shredded men with insane proportions doing ridiculous poses.
I think another angle of it is that men aren't as against being sexualized and unless it overtly appeals to them because their gay/bi. they just gloss over it. Conan, jojo, fist of the north star, "manime" in general, etc.
If you find no appeal in the male form like me, this shit is just cool. Im just aware that this is kind of the same thing as above.
Almost naked greasy buff dudes doing goofy poses while doing stereotypical manly things, with their junk regularly emphasized.
edit: I want to add a little addendum to this.
If you read this whole mess of a thread, i think (or atleast I hope) you might take away not so much as changing your entire world view, but rather the nuance of what I'm trying to get across.
I have my opinions, you have yours, but i hope at the very least the nuance of it is something that can be communicated. Even within this thread I have reached agreeable conclusions with those i was debating.
At the end of the day I suppose the only thing we can ever take away is our own conclusions.