Would be using the kneeling mini considered "modeling for advantage"?
I think the pose looks cooler but I would not want my opponent feel cheated if it gives me an unfair advantage in any way.
It's an Eliminator as sold by GW. I wouldn't have a problem with it.
That being said, I wouldn't use the old, metal pathfinder with railgun who's lying prone. I've still got the model, but he won't be showing up in any games anymore.
If anything, it works to your disadvantage. This model will be shooting from conceal 90% of the time, so you donāt care how visible he is, but he may have more trouble seeing above walls.
Personally I think static poses are the dumbest rule to have to clarify. I run a ābase to standard heightā rule where poses literally do nothing. Killteam uses conceal orders to assume your model is ducking behind cover so why canāt it be assumed the model moves within the confines of its base and can see as if it was standing or crouched regardless of whatās in front of it
This is exactly how infinity works. LOS works off a standardised silhouette marker if there is ever any question. That way you can have as much expression as you want in building the base/choosing what variant of the mini but the game will always be fair.
I love the GW IP and lore but man, is Infinity by Corvus Belli a much better made game.
True line of sight is just a dumb outdated rule in general. There's a reason so many modern miniature games have ditched it, but GW is a dinosaur unfortunately.
If you listen to Andy Chambers, one of his biggest regrets is that he fought for GW to keep "I go, you go" in Wrahammer 40K. It's by far the biggest reason why I prefer Kill Team and skirmish games because althought the armies looks badass, it feels like an old man's game to play when you're just throwing a bunch of saves and sipping on a drink half of the game.
I understand why Rick Priestley left because when it comes to actual game design, GW is not innovative at all. Their lore and miniature production is of course why they're the 4,000 pound gorilla in the corner, and part of why we're all playing Kill Team, but it's like they're almost going out of their way not to learn from other games. No wonder Rick Priestley left GW and made Bolt Action. I have a theory he's one of the people Andy Chambers fought on the unit activation issue.
I mean yeah the minis are still pretty great but realistically the reason they're the gorilla is more momentum than anything else at this point. If 40k launched today with everything as it is now but without several decades of being the most popular game on the market it would struggle to find a foothold.
And yeah not surprising that the old guard have learned from their mistakes. I don't blame them for making the game they did. But I can certainly blame the people making the game now for not moving with the times.
For skirmish games, and for more competitive players, Infinity is very beloved by the miniature gaming community. Theyāve solved all the bullshit with model posing affecting the rules, like in this very post.
I had to double check the rules of the sub because of other hobby communities. In r/lego is you say āMegabloks suck!ā you can get in trouble with the mods because you mentioned a competitor at all. Luckily this sub is progressive enough to have these discussions about other games.
Infinity is very cool conceptually but I found it very hard to get into last I tried, which admittedly was a couple of editions ago so I've been meaning to go back to see if it's improved matters. Mostly the issue was spaghetti rules with a lot of cross referencing other rules. Something which GW definitely has done as well in their games but Infinity just seemed to take the cake when I last tried it. The thing that felt really egregious to me was the Martial Arts ability which models could have. But a model could have different levels of it, and each of those granted other abilities, which I think some of which referenced other abilities. And sorry but when you're multiple references deep just to figure out what one of a models abilities actually does you've got an issue with how your rules are presented.
But again I definitely want to revisit it because the minis are cool and I like the concept. I still think I haven't found a better Skirmish game than Marvel Crisis Protocol in recent years though.
Hard to say as I typically stick to Skirmish games. But in that arena Marvel Crisis Protocol and Star Wars Shatterpoint are way better than anything GW makes. MCP might be the best skirmish game out there currently to be honest. In terms of larger scale games I've heard good things about Star Wars Legion and Warmachine.
I've been meaning to give it a try as I've been subscribed to their official Tribe on MMF for a while (mostly because the models looked cool and I'd just got my printer around the time they launched it) so I've ended up with (again official) STLs for two playable armies. And the rules are free too. I'm not a big fan of it being IGOUGO but I can live with it.
Oh also I'm probably going to end up with a third army as their next big STL campaign is launching this week and it's undead pirates which I absolutely cannot resist.
One of the reasons I rarely play in our community now is because we have a guy who is incessant about this rule, and also about where the model's head is.
Other skrimish games have done this so much better. I hate when the rules have one flaw in them that rules lawyers will abuse to make the game worse for the people who slaved away at their models to make them have a cool pose.
Iāll never understand why people are like this. I WANNA ROLL DICE.
I have a friend that will rules lawyer in a positive(?) way. Where itās mostly him trying To figure out if he can do whatever, not in a you canāt do that kind of way.
If we donāt find it in a minute or so i just tell him to roll cause itās more fun when weāre playing.even if it will fuck me over Iād just rather play. Idgaf about winning
They handle it slightly differently, but a popular one is to basically use the base as the start of a cylinder that is a certain height and if you can draw a line between these two cylinders, their visible (unless they use something like hiding orders).
Vespids are super annoying about that. Almost every single one of them is standing on their tippy toes on top of something with their wings stretched way up, so it's way more difficult for them to hide than some other models on the exact same base size.
Imo, if you're assembling parts from the kit a model comes with, mixing and matching among models is safe. (Also assuming you're using the intended poses.) You'd have to try pretty hard to come up with something unfair.
Yeah, the only problem starts to be when someone "conveniently" models their melee specialists to be "wading through a river" by putting their forehead and one hand at base height.
Yeah but his guy doesnāt look to be part of Deathwatch.
I might do it to at some point, as I paint Blood Ravens and love doing so Strategic Transfert of Equipment to Alternate Location.
They are, but all AoD KT I see use the standing guy, so I was wondering if there was any obligation about the pose of the mini, or if any mini in the box could do.
If that's an AoD sniper, he'll spend the whole game in conceal so being lower is only a disadvantage because he won't be able to see over walls he would if he was standing.
The only balancing issues arise from making miniatures that shoot on conceal taller and miniatures that have only melee weapons smaller (so they're harder to shoot).
Not trying to be rude, but I don't understand why this is a question when the model literally comes like this from the kit? Modeling for advantage is usually reserved for kitbashes or actual modifications. If a model is just posed like this from the instruction manual, then that's just how it is, not even debatable. Were you confronted about this or something?
I was not confronted about this, but all the AoD Kill Teams I see have the same standing Eliminator so I was wondering if I could take any of the Eliminators in the set.
Itās technically worse to take the kneeling one since all of his weapon profiles besides the bolt pistol are silent so he can always be on conceal. He doesnāt have to worry about hiding behind cover and it gives him more sight lines on enemies
We always play infinite wall height and base to base visibility except for monsters and vehicles and stuff like Magnus or other completely ridiculous ones. Those visibility rules are just fucked up. "I can see this tiny piece of the spear your unit is twirling for absolutely no fucking reason at all, that means my tank can just kill your entire squad. What the fuck.
In kill team, you're generally better off being taller because you can see over edges better but they only draw visibility to your model while cover lines go to your base. And since you can fire while concealed forever, what matters to your opponents is your base, not your physical model.
Well, this rule is only true for models with the ability to shoot (which are most of them tbf). However certain melee only specialist generally don't want to be seen until they charge to prevent getting seek/seek light or stun grenaded. E.g. wrecka crew explosive squigs want to stage out of LoS because they have to be in engage order after TP1 - a larger model would make this more difficult.
IMO modeling for advantage is when you're modeling your mini(s) to give yourself a CLEAR advantage in a game. Having your sniper slightly crouched wouldn't give you an advantage significant enough for it to matter in over the course of a game.
If I was worried about this I would just say "he's about a head shorter than normal, we can just compensate by measuring from a tiny bit above the head"
Iām playing spectres - they are quite small - you would be shocked how often I am mid activation trying to get a shot that would normally be totally fine, but then when I actually check it, the crouching dudes head is staring directly at a pillar!!
I've had people playing prone minis for savage. It's really easy, as they can't see over anything, so are completely pointless. I've had to go and demonstrate what laying down looks like against a low wall before š¤£
When I have tanks that are lower than average I put radio aerials/turrets/things on top to poke up to the min standard height. I think you can do something like that with a crouching mini if you like the pose but don't want it being noticeably different profile.
I think modeling for advantage is only a thing for strong close combat pieces. For mainly shooting charakters it is somehow even as you get a disadvantage for every advantage.
Cc units on the other side benefit from being smaller. Imagine a demon prince of Khorne the size of a nurgling sneaking around
All I can think is a official tournament ruling that I guy was modelling for advantage because his flymodel was straight instead of a angled forward but dude got skewed for it, if it's official and just a different model in the unit then just remove it first n measure tlos by the tallest models head
Yes but from memory that's because engagement range for different vertical level/heights unit
was a limited reach like 5" if I remember properly....
And the model was positioned in such a way that no parts of it was within the 5" from ground level so effectively impossible to impact it this way...
As a GW āold headā, as the kids say, I never really understood the strict adherence to official models that the newer generation of dice chuckers embraced.
Now has the landscape of GW games changed a great deal from when I was younger, yes. Does it lessen the instances of game stopping bickering? Kinda maybe?!
Models are models, and in my opinion so long as the model stays the same for the entire game, then thereās pros and cons for either pose as others have said. Oneās a harder target to hit, but will probably run into situations where it canāt draw LoS, and the other will be easier to hit, but have better LoS.
Again, so long as youāre not switching between the two in the middle of a game to get an advantage, youāre good.
This of course has a statuette of limitations. Dramatically changing silhouettes, or base sizes should instantly require some explanation.
It also depends on the context of the situation. A greenhorn should be given more leeway for modelling, you want to get them hooked on the hobby to have more opponents to play. Letting them dip their toes in with whatever they can get their hands on should be the way to lean. Veterans should know better, and understand the ramifications of what modelling to advantage is, so they get the scorn.
An example I bungled into was with Necromunda. Guy was adamant that swapping between flight stand height of a Van Saar Neotekās Grav-Cutter mid match was kosher. Dude wasnāt even a Van Saar player! He would not see reason on it, and I had to just walk away from the debate as Iāll never play him in RL anyway. I assume his gaming group has to deal with him and the headaches he causes on the regular.
So I agree with you, but would a TO be able say that it's not the official "kill team" eliminator sniper model, as the official model stands at full height?
Standing is the official model pose for the Angels of Death team. Changing the height of a model is usually a no go no matter which way you do it because KT uses the questionable and outdated head LoS rule. In a friendly game with your mates no one will care, but in a tournament you could be told the model is illegal. Changing the height of models can cause problems for you as well as advantages so the rule is there to try and keep things level competitively. Unfortunately, until they change the head rule or the people who purposely base for advantage leave the hobby we are stuck with how it is.
Easiest fix for you though is just add cork to the base of the kneeling model so his head is roughly the same height. Problem solved. This removes both negative (you can't see over as much terrain) and beneficial (he is easier to hide behind low terrain) from the model and you get to keep the pose you like. Win win.
Umm actually, I think you didn't glue the second one tightly so there is a 30 micron gap between the model and the base. Also it looks like there were three layers of paint which adds another 10 micron to the height of the model, so 40 microns of additional height is a pretty solid advantage, who would ever play with you?
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u/WideReply8539 8d ago edited 8d ago
Pro: hes harder to see.
Con: he got a harder time seeing things š
That means with this model its more modeling for disadvantage.
But in general, small differences like that shouldnt be an issue.