r/DebateVaccines • • Jun 22 '21

Bitchute links are automatically removed by Reddit

456 Upvotes

I manually approve removed posts and comments which contain Bitchute links but Reddit automatically removes them later. I don't know what I can do about that. If anyone has any ideas, let me know.


r/DebateVaccines • • May 10 '23

šŸ”¬ šŸ’‰Attention, fellow members of r/debatevaccines! šŸ’‰ šŸ”¬

75 Upvotes

Let's clear the air: despite rumors, we, the mods, are not cyborgs šŸ¤–. We're volunteers who still enjoy a good old-fashioned stroll in the park and a decent night's sleep. We're dedicated to maintaining a fair environment, even when the antivax-to-vax ratio is more uneven than a seesaw with an elephant and a mouse. 🐘 🐁

If we sometimes appear biased we're truly sorry. Reading every single post and comment is just not feasible.

Time for a quick rules recap: civility is king. Avoid personal attacks and ad hominems. We'll initially respond to any violations with a warning. Repeat offenders will face escalating bans, culminating in a permanent ban if necessary.

No trolling or spam, and always source your image/video posts. And please remember, there is often not a clear black and white line when it comes To the sub rules. There’s a big grey area, and it is often up to the interpretation of the mods as to what degree they are enforced. We will always err on the side of caution.

However, adhering to these guidelines allows r/debatevaccines to remain a productive, open-minded hub for discussions on vaccine safety and efficacy. šŸ“œit also keeps us out of the cross hairs of the Reddit Admins.

(update:)We always welcome feedback from members of this subreddit. Don't hesitate to message us with your thoughts - any civil input will be taken seriously. We often discuss our sub's rules behind the scenes, with the aim of keeping the debates as open as possible.

(update number two for those that require special accommodations:) the exception to this is if you have been asked by the mods to please stop messaging us. Please do so.

A final note, we've got a shiny new gadget on board: the Ban Evasion Filter! This tool is designed to make our discussions healthier than a salad, more balanced than a tightrope walker, more constructive than a team of busy beavers. We are unsure how effective it is, but we have implemented it, and are going to find out.

So…..let's all keep an open mind, stay civil, and get debating! šŸŽ¤


r/DebateVaccines • • 5h ago

AMH rebound 10 months after vaccines

1 Upvotes

I should preface this by saying I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I want to share what happened to me in case it's helpful to anyone.

I was 40 last year and had been testing my AMH fairly regularly over the last couple of years. It was always fine for my age hovering around 2 ng/ml (14 pmol/L). About 10 months ago I took a bunch of vaccines including a live yellow fever vaccine in preparation for a trip to Ethiopia. The following month my AMH was tested again in preparation for an egg retrieval and it had tanked by 70% to 0.7 ng/ml (5 pmol/L). It remained low over the next 8 months, I did 2 cycles with disappointing results.
My friend sent me this Turkish study on the impact of Covid vaccines on amh. Many of the women in this study experienced a decline in AMH level and menstrual irregularities following the vaccine. There was a significant recovery in AMH levels at month 9.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36919413/

Remarkably at month 10 I tested again and my amh levels had rebounded to its pre-vaccination levels with a result of 2.2 ng/ml. I should mention that all of my testing was done at the same lab with a cross check of some of the results at Weil Cornell (they matched).

I know the Turkish study has its limitations, and it could all be a coincidence, but seeing my results really took me by surprise and made me wonder!


r/DebateVaccines • • 1d ago

Question For years I struggled…

Post image
8 Upvotes

As the subject line says, for years I struggled to eloquently convince 1st time pre-natal parents that they need to make a difficult decision on the day when their baby is born.

My vax cautionary tale was anecdotal, but it was passionate and heart-felt.

I showed them the precipitous decline of the USA’s infant mortality ranking #’s and how the worldwide leaders in dramatically improving their infant mortality (Singapore & Sweden) were who we should be looking to emulate.

Now, for the first time; I feel the data is there.

I am sharing in this format:

Image: (above)

Cspan clip: (need to fix typo in title)

https://www.c-span.org/clip/senate-committee/user-clip-unsafe-a-well-designed-study-to-reduce-vaccine-hesitancy-in-parents-proved-vaccines-safety-should-be-quesioned/5192645

Full Video:

https://www.c-span.org/program/senate-committee/senate-homeland-security-subcommittee-hearing-on-vaccines-policy/665350

Award-winning Documentary:
WATCH NOW | An Inconvenient Study
https://www.aninconvenientstudy.com/

Siri Testimony Document 1:

https://judiciary.house.gov/sites/evo-subsites/republicans-judiciary.house.gov/files/evo-media-document/Siri%20Testimony.pdf

PDF 2:

https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/wp-content/uploads/Siri-Testimony.pdf

Is there anything I should be adding or including to get them to open-mindedly seek the truth in the best interest of their child’s health?

TIA


r/DebateVaccines • • 1d ago

Bill Gates Dutch court case gets a major reversal of expert witness testimony!!! Major win... NOW with tons of links...

24 Upvotes

Dr. Mike Yeadon, Sasha Latypova, Catherine Austin Fitts and Dr. Joseph Sansone’s expert evidence WILL BE HEARD! Links: https://www.google.com/search?q=bill+gates+reversal+expert+witness+netherlands&sca_esv=90c58dd08e43b2c3&sxsrf=APpeQnvOgzGTYMt6wJguYUE2tq_kdKNH-w%3A1792164239345&ei=j0HSapu9FNrlwN4P8--r6As&biw=1239&bih=655&oq=bill+gates+reversal+expert+witness+nether&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiKWJpbGwgZ2F0ZXMgcmV2ZXJzYWwgZXhwZXJ0IHdpdG5lc3MgbmV0aGVyKgUIABigATIFECEYoAEyBRAhGKABMgUQIRigATIFECEYoAFIh2RQzyNYl0ZwAXgBkAEAmAHfAqABpgyqAQcwLjMuMy4xuAEByAEA-AEBmAIIoAKyDsICChAAGEcY1gQYsAPCAgUQIRirApgDAIgGAZAGBZIHCTEuMi40LjAuMaAHvCayBwkwLjIuNC4wLjG4B58OwgcFMi00LjTIB0CACAE&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

https://londondaily.com/rtrmnp-dutch-court-orders-bill-gates-to-stand-trial-over-covid-19-vaccine-allegations

https://slguardian.org/dutch-court-orders-bill-gates-to-face-trial-over-covid-19-vaccine-injuries/ https://www.lifestylenetworth.com/celebrity/bill-gates-dutch-court/ https://interestofjustice.substack.com/p/expert-evidence-admitted-against https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3YNpPPwBPQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV-9S-DjDns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRfU-Iw0On8 https://www.youtube.com/shorts/DmqkxiUduqc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaF-fq2Zn7I

Following two powerful legal challenges by Attorney Peter Stassen, the Dutch Court has reversed its position, allowing 3 HOURS AND 19 MINUTES OF SWORN EXPERT TESTIMONY from the plaintiff’s nominated expert witnesses to be exhibited as evidence ahead of the landmark 22 OCTOBER HEARING in the case against Bill Gates et al!

Defendants include Bill Gates, Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla, former Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte, the Dutch State, and about a dozen others (politicians, scientists, and media figures).

Bill Gates , Pfizer's CEO and Mark Rutte are in a Dutch courtroom Thursday over COVID vaccine injuries .
Two of the richest men and nothing been reported in mainstream world news?
Two plaintiffs are dead . Gates tried to claim the Dutch court had no power over him .
They laughed !
MSN wont touch this why?

The world should be watching this to see the outcome because a lot of people have died or have been left with serious disabilities due to him and his company..

It is scheduled for Thursday, 22 October 2026, starting at 12:30 local time (CET) at the District Court of the Northern Netherlands (Rechtbank Noord-Nederland) in Leeuwarden. This is the first substantive (on-the-merits) oral hearing in a civil lawsuit filed in July 2023 by (originally) seven Dutch plaintiffs who claim injury from COVID-19 vaccinations. Two of the plaintiffs have since died. Please take the time to read and watch ALL of the links before commenting...


r/DebateVaccines • • 1d ago

Question If you chose not to vaccinate did child go whole childhood unvaccinated?

5 Upvotes

My son is 14 months I’ve declined vaccines at every visit and he hasn’t had any vaccines since birth. He was EBF for 10 months he never gets sick but also isn’t in daycare or around a bunch of kids only family members. If you didn’t vaccinate your child did you just decline throughout their time in elementary middle and high school or did you give them vaccines as they got into school? Just curious


r/DebateVaccines • • 1d ago

UK's Covid vaccine compensation scheme set for overhaul after Inquiry criticism

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2 Upvotes

r/DebateVaccines • • 21h ago

Poll How many of you have lost a child to SIDS vaxxed/unvaxxed?

0 Upvotes
45 votes, 6d left
Yes SIDS, yes VAX
Yes SIDS, no VAX
No SIDS, yes VAX
No SIDS, no VAX

r/DebateVaccines • • 1d ago

Question Is pro-vaccine science based on trustworthy data?

4 Upvotes

It really makes you wonder when they pretty much all have conflicts of interest.


r/DebateVaccines • • 1d ago

The idea of vaccines torments me

0 Upvotes

H wow


r/DebateVaccines • • 2d ago

Conventional Vaccines Child heath checks around the world

8 Upvotes

My twins have been for their NHS development and growth review today, this is done between 10 and 12 months of age. No concerns found - everything is spot on with them both.

Nurse went though their notes and said ā€œyou’re not
Vaccinating?ā€ We replied no, and their response was ā€œok, that’s fineā€ and onto the next question. It’s been the same experience with the GP - no questioning or pushing at all. Medical staff don’t bat an eye.

It sparked my curiosity as to how that conversation typically goes in other countries?


r/DebateVaccines • • 2d ago

The Purpose Of A System Is To Do What It Does

0 Upvotes

What the system does

The system's function, read from its outputs:

  1. It tests the wrong question. Every study asks "does vaccine X add risk on top of the other vaccines?" rather than "does the cumulative immunological burden cross a threshold in a susceptible child?" The question is chosen because it's answerable with existing infrastructure (EHR, registries) and because a null result is publishable and fundable.
  2. It measures what it can measure, not what's relevant. ICD codes don't capture temporal-vaccination relationships. EHR structured data doesn't capture the clinician's causal suspicion. VAERS underreports by ~100Ɨ. The measurement system is not broken — it's adequate for the questions it's designed to answer, which are not the questions being asked.
  3. It closes the question once consensus is declared. After the 2004 IOM report and the 2012 IOM report, the question "do vaccines cause autism?" is treated as settled. No new studies are funded to test the untested hypotheses (individual vaccines against zero-vaccine comparators, GxE interactions, cumulative threshold effects). The consensus functions as a stopping rule: once it's declared, the evidence base is frozen and the question is no longer open.
  4. It rewards null results and suppresses positive signals. A study that finds "no association" is publishable, fundable, and career-advancing. A study that finds a signal (Mawson, Daley, Gallagher) is retracted, criticized, or ignored. The publication incentive structure is not neutral. It is directionally biased toward the null.
  5. It conflates "insufficient evidence" with "no association." The IOM's own language for DTaP and HepB is "insufficient evidence to accept or reject." That gets translated in public communication to "no link found." These are different claims. The first says "we haven't tested this." The second says "we tested this and it's null."

This is the result of a discussion with Brave AI. If your comment is about criticising the use of AI without addressing the content of this post, you will be blocked.


r/DebateVaccines • • 2d ago

From the ContagionCuriosity community on Reddit: Measles outbreaks could leave thousands vulnerable to infectious diseases for years

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0 Upvotes

r/DebateVaccines • • 3d ago

Pro-vaxxers, do you think it's unreasonable for me to observe that a lot of pro-vax seem to hold a view along the lines of: ā€œYou can't possibly be right, because that would mean thousands of experts, doctors, studies, and the scientific consensus were all wrong, and that's simply impossible!ā€?

38 Upvotes

And if you do, why do you think that is the case? And don't you think that this would inevitably affect the way you evaluate evidence, data, and arguments?

If you've already decided that my position is inherently implausible because it would require you to accept that thousands of experts, doctors, and scientific papers could be wrong, or that your entire worldview along with billions of other people could be completely wrong in a very critical way, then haven't you already pre decided the conclusion about what is true before properly examining the evidence?

More importantly, doesn't that suggest that evidence, data, and reasoning aren't actually at the forefront of your epistemology? Because if you've already established what you consider possible or impossible based on your prior trust in authority and consensus, then you're not simply following the evidence wherever it leads. You're using your existing beliefs about who can and cannot be wrong to determine which conclusions you're willing to entertain in the first place.

I was debating someone in this subreddit the other day who told me that they weren't going to change their mind until the scientific consensus changed theirs. But think about what that actually means. They're literally saying that they won't reconsider their position until the very institutions and collective body of experts whose conclusions they're questioning have reconsidered theirs, and the ultimate irony is that many of the people in that collective body are probably thinking the same thing, so in other words what they are saying is that they won't accept something as true until the people who got it wrong, accept they did get it wrong.

So what, exactly, is the role of evidence, data, and reasoning in this process? If you've already decided that your position cannot be wrong until the consensus acknowledges that it is, then what could an individual possibly present to you that would change your mind? You're not going to to be able to evaluate the argument on its merits. You've established in advance that the conclusion is unacceptable unless those that got it wrong have already accepted it.

And this is precisely the problem I'm getting at much of the time. If your starting assumption is that thousands of experts, doctors, and scientific papers cannot collectively be wrong, then you've effectively made your position immune to challenge. The possibility that the consensus might be mistaken isn't something you're willing to investigate through the evidence. It's something you've already ruled out before the investigation even begins. At that point, are you actually following the evidence wherever it leads, or are you simply fixated on peddling the consensus and treating its agreement as a prerequisite for deciding what is true?

The problem is that people operating from this mindset often don't realise they're doing it. They genuinely believe they're evaluating the evidence objectively and arriving at the correct conclusions through reason and data. But , what if they're merely convincing themselves they're arriving through reason and data, because, at a deeper psychological level, they simply cannot afford to be wrong? If accepting the possibility that the consensus is mistaken means confronting the fact that something they've so deeply pushed and soo deeply trusted, might be fundamentally wrong, then the psychological consequences are... existentially devastating. They may therefore unconsciously rationalise away contradictory evidence, subject it to disproportionate scrutiny, or find reasons to dismiss it, all while sincerely believing they're being objective.


r/DebateVaccines • • 2d ago

Craigslist blocked my Vax Post

7 Upvotes

For those not familiar with Craigslist, there is a ā€œgigsā€ section where someone in need of a person or persons to provide a service can post odd jobs like moving, car repairs, cleaning, medical testing, modeling, landscaping, etc… I’ve used Craigslist for over a decade and have posted over 1000 gigs bc I own a service business and always need labor. You can post ANYTHING in Gigs and people will contact you. Even if it’s an impossible task and you’re offering zero dollars, people will still contact you. Sometimes it’s scammers but you will still get multiple responses. However, recently I posted in three cities (NYC, LA, Miami) asking people to tell me if they have given their child a vaccine and have seen any adverse reaction. I offered $1000 dollars and for the first time in history, I received zero responses… crickets. I then used VPN from multiple different computers and looked for the gig but it was not findable. I asked Claude, then ChatGPT to find it. They could not. It still showed active on my account… Craigslist shadow blocked it from being seen by anyone… Why would they do that?


r/DebateVaccines • • 3d ago

Question A very important thing people on both sides overlook in terms of how much it affects people's ethical perspective on vaccination, that is -> Aggregate benefits can be positive, while individual risk can be negative.

7 Upvotes

One of the most under discussed issues is the distribution of risks and benefits. people bearing the harms and the people receiving the gains are not the same.

a vaccine that meaningfully reduces mortality or severe disease in the immunocompromised through herd immunity, means the serious adverse events land disproportionately on healthy children who faced near-zero personal risk from the disease itself. The net societal calculation can still come out positive, yet the healthy kid who develops a severe reaction experiences a loss. Their individual risk-benefit was negative even if the population-level one was positive.

So I wonder, assuming pro-vaxxers are right, can any pro vaxxer actually prove that the people receiving the vaccine harm however small it may be are actually receiving enough benefit from the overall aggregate data to override the likelihood of that harm?


r/DebateVaccines • • 2d ago

Those of you who express many anti-vax positions seem antisocial, and that’s a very sad thing.

0 Upvotes

All the debate here is individual rights and winning the ā€œI’m right you’re wrongā€ argument.

In the 1950s about at least 60,000 people a year got polio - most with lifelong consequences including perpetual ventilation - and 3,000 deaths per year. Then the Salk vaccine came out. It wasn’t perfect. But people flocked to get it. And polio was ā€œeradicatedā€.

But in my case, I had a terrible (temporary) adverse reaction to the vaccine a few decades later. I was hospitalized. My parents said ā€œyes, but you won’t get polio. And, as important, you’ll never give it to anyone who will suffer or die from itā€. I guess those were more religious times.

So now many of you can opt out with relative safety and say ā€œmy not getting it won’t make a differenceā€.

Obviously if you are the only one you are right since no one can give it to you. But you are not alone. So eventually 1% don’t take it. Then 2%. Eventually it becomes contagious again.

However, what you can ā€œget away withā€ to please yourself means you contribute - although t first a tiny amount - to the chance that an innocent child suffers or dies of polio. In part because you do add to that risk. But also because a number of you say ā€œno one will notice if I, too, steal a little from the register.ā€

I’m not gonna argue a lot. Frankly I’m sick of it in this sub.

But I will say this: I would never be able to live with myself if my selfish action ever led - even possibly - to a child suffering, being maimed or dying. I guess that’s how I was raised. As my parents reminded me.

Fundamentally this isn’t about individual ā€œrightsā€ - even though 99% of this sub is. It’s about not being antisocial and selfish. Which is to say it’s about imagining the suffering of others. It’s about empathy, really. Caring about other people.

So here’s my final take before I unjoin this sub.

I don’t know how you could live with yourself. I think morals matter. I think people matter. And I pity you for not feeling that way. I have no idea what happened in your upbringing that touched so much time on Reddit arguing your rights, and trying to disprove what we know: vaccines have immensely decreased suffering, injury, and death - largely among innocent children.

That’s it. I’m done. Good luck to you all


r/DebateVaccines • • 4d ago

The goal of science is to establish what is true, not to manipulate public perception, manufacture confidence, or protect an existing narrative from scrutiny. And yet, when it comes to vaccine policy, far too often the priority appears to be securing compliance first, preventing doubt first.

21 Upvotes

If you are going to promote, prescribe, or mandate an extensive programme of pharmaceutical interventions across entire populations, then you had better be prepared to do the rigorous, comprehensive work necessary to justify that programme. Not the bare minimum required to obtain regulatory approval. Not a handful of vaguely relevant narrowly focused, highly manufactured studies defensively presented as though they settle the entire debate. Not an endless parade of vague citations that may or may not even be fully relevant to the concerns being raised, intended to gishgallop critics into submission.

The goal should be; accepting the limitations of existing evidence, investigating safety concerns, conducting rigorous long-term surveillance, making relevant data transparent, and being honest about what is known, what is uncertain, and what has never been adequately investigated.

And no, simply pointing to the existence of studies does not settle the argument. The question is whether those studies are sufficiently rigorous, comprehensive, and relevant to support the conclusions being drawn from them, and whether they address the actual concerns or actually sufficiently demonstrate the vaccine program.

Repeating that vaccines are safe because studies say they are safe, while refusing to seriously examine whether the available studies truly justify that specific confidence, is not an argument.

--- --- --- --- ---

Something particularly revealing is the tendency for pro-vaxxers to frame deeper research as an expensive, pointless, unnecessary efforts to appease anti-vaxxers unwarranted concerns, while simultaneously citing the results of that very research as valuable important evidence that vaccines are safe.

You cannot have it both ways. If those investigations produce valuable evidence that you want to cite, then they serve a legitimate scientific purpose. If the evidence is important enough to cite when it supports your position, you cannot simply dismiss the demand for it as an unnecessary waste of time when anit-vaxxers ask for it to be done.

--- --- --- --- ---

An underlying problem is the apparent substitution of narrative protection for scientific investigation. The moment your primary concern becomes whether investigating a question might increase vaccine hesitancy, you have introduced a weak political objective into the scientific process. You are no longer engaging in ''what is the truth'', when you are deciding what the public should be allowed to see, what uncertainties are safe to acknowledge, and which questions are too inconvenient to pursue. That is an extraordinarily dangerous mindset for anyone claiming scientific authority over decisions affecting millions of people.

And spare us the argument that further investigation might undermine public confidence. If confidence depends on avoiding questions that might expose limitations in the evidence, then that confidence is being protected from scrutiny rather than earned through it. You do not get to demand extraordinary levels of public trust while treating the process of earning that trust as an obstacle to your objectives. Nor do you get to insist that people accept interventions with confidence and certainty while simultaneously arguing that the research needed to justify that confidence is too expensive, too difficult, awkward or too impractical to conduct.

The appropriate response to a criticism is to evaluate its evidential basis, not to determine whether entertaining it would be convenient for public health messaging.

And if you genuinely believe vaccine hesitancy poses a serious public health problem, then perhaps you should consider how much your own conduct contributes to it. Treating concerned people as idiots, dismissing their questions without properly addressing them, selectively presenting reassuring ''evidence'', and behaving as though acknowledging uncertainty is a concession to the enemy are excellent ways to destroy trust. You cannot spend years telling people to trust the science while demonstrating, through your own behaviour, that you are more interested in defending a position than in examining it scientifically.

The burden of proof belongs to those making the claims and demanding compliance. The more extensive the program, and the more coercive the policies surrounding it, the greater the responsibility to establish that its benefits justify its risks or that the risks are definitely greatly outweighed by the benefits, and, also, unavoidable... (even for risks that are very low you can't just assume that those risks are not avoidable).

Ultimately, the objective of public health should be to establish what is true and act responsibly on the basis of that knowledge. It should not be to maximise compliance at any cost, suppress uncertainty because it is inconvenient, or manage public perception until dissent becomes politically harmless.

If your position is scientifically robust, subject it to scrutiny. If your evidence is strong, defend it. If your conclusions have limitations, acknowledge them. And if there are legitimate questions you have not adequately investigated, do the work.

You do not earn scientific authority by demanding that people trust you. You earn it by demonstrating that you are willing to follow the evidence wherever it leads, even when the findings are inconvenient, politically damaging, or liable to complicate the message you want the public to hear.

The moment you become more concerned with protecting confidence in your conclusions than with testing whether those conclusions are justified, you have abandoned the very principle that makes science worth trusting in the first place.


r/DebateVaccines • • 4d ago

Question If vaccines did cause autism, could they cause it in teenagers too?

7 Upvotes

Hey, my parents are anti-vaxxers, and they don’t want me to get the Tdap shot

I haven’t discussed this topic much with them, but from my understanding, they think autism and other health problems can be caused by vaccines

I don’t want to discuss whether or not vaccines do cause autism or not, but rather, if we assume for the sake of this argument that it’s true, and the alleged cases mostly involve children under the age of 3, why would getting vaccinated as a teenager be a concern?

Are there any other potential health risks I should know about besides autism?

For context, I suspect I might be autistic myself, although I haven’t been diagnosed

I’d appreciate any comments that actually answer my question instead of just calling me stupid or using random slurs, thanks


r/DebateVaccines • • 4d ago

Fauci must speak

6 Upvotes

As a long covid victim from a lab made virus I am confused why one off the virus creator's can go on to shout up. Millions off people worldwide suffering and this is just the beginning. Millions of people are dead already. As a kid I watched RAMBO first blood. Johnny Rambo in a prison cell who don't want answer the questions. Than he go on the run . They tried everything to get a word out of him. I ask my self why in the world is it possible for a serial killer who probably have the knowledge for a solution to save the life's off people worldwide to shut is mouth. I think that Fauci and is loved ones and a bunch off other rich ones have already the medicines and knowledge to survive the bio attack Covid 19. I had a dream last night Fauci be pressed to give the secret solution and guess what? He escaped from the court house and go on the run to the Hollywood Hills. There he dig Im self in. At the end president Trump with a microphone asking to surrender.


r/DebateVaccines • • 4d ago

Conventional Vaccines Why do antivaxxers focus only on vaccines?

0 Upvotes

Let's call it what it is: when the concern is about vaccine injury the concern is about potential side effects of vaccines.

All medications have side effects. Antibiotics a lot of the time have riskier and more prevalent side effects than vaccines by far that are actually scientifically well documented. This is a quick list from chatgpt:

Severe intestinal inflammation (C. difficile colitis): Can cause severe diarrhea, colon damage, and sometimes sepsis. Esophageal ulcers: Some antibiotics, especially doxycycline, can damage the tube connecting the mouth to the stomach. Severe allergic reactions (anaphylaxis): Can cause throat swelling, breathing difficulty, and collapse. Severe skin reactions: Rare reactions such as Stevens–Johnson syndrome can cause blistering, skin peeling, and damage to the mouth or eyes. Liver injury: Certain antibiotics can cause liver inflammation or damage. Kidney damage: Particularly associated with injectable antibiotics such as gentamicin. Permanent hearing loss: Can occur with certain antibiotics, especially aminoglycosides such as gentamicin. Tendon rupture: Associated with fluoroquinolones such as ciprofloxacin and levofloxacin. Lasting nerve damage: Some antibiotics can cause persistent numbness, tingling, burning, or weakness. Dangerous heart rhythms: Certain antibiotics, including azithromycin, can disrupt the heart’s electrical rhythm. Severe low blood sugar: Fluoroquinolones can sometimes cause dangerously low blood sugar. Confusion or delirium: Serious nervous-system effects can occur with some antibiotics. Aortic aneurysm rupture or tear: A rare complication associated with fluoroquinolones, especially in people already at risk.

AND YET: not a single antivaxxer I know is anti all medicine. In fact the antivaxxer in my life tends to push for antibiotics even when it could be a viral cold.

Imo that's pure hypocrisy.


r/DebateVaccines • • 5d ago

Grew up anti-vax

8 Upvotes

I want to share my experience growing up anti-vax. This isn’t to be rude to anyone pro-vax or anti-vax, but just to share my experience and my reasoning throughout my life. I hope that it may help some understand where anti-vaxxers are coming from, and I hope that it may also help some anti-vaxxers consider their decision.

I was never vaccinated for anything as a child. The reason why, was because one time my mom was babysitting her younger sister who had just gotten a vaccine that morning. Her eyes went crossed, and my mom was extremely freaked out and assumed it was the vaccine since it had been given to her that morning (I’m not commenting one way or the other on if it was vaccine or not, because I have absolutely no way to know that, and that’s not what this post is about. If this freaks people out towards vaccines, that’s fair. Again, I’m just sharing my story. I will say though, I know this experience really scared my mother, so I do understand her connecting it to the vaccine). My aunt was given special glasses and she fully recovered. And yes, this is a true story. She had no other issues health wise btw.

I continued to be wary of vaccines for most of my life. I’d heard the story about my aunt, and my mother was worried maybe we had some genetic predisposition that made vaccines dangerous for us. I had whooping cough as a toddler, chickenpox as a child, and measles as a teenager. None of these caused major issues for me or any long-term health damage. The one thing I will say is that I don’t remember whooping cough, but the stories sounded scary. My older sister had it and literally would have bouts of being unable to breathe, so my dad would take her outside to breathe cold air (idk if that’s actually supposed to help, that’s just what he chose to do for it).

When COVID happened I was very against the vaccine and very afraid of it. I didn’t understand how people could take a vaccine that was so new to the market and not be nervous. I was also particularly nervous because I’d never had ANY vaccine so I didn’t know if I’d have an allergic reaction.

Eventually, as I did research on the vaccine, and as I saw people around me take it without issues, I opted to get one dose and see how I did.

I felt fine so I got the second.

Now this is the important part of my post IMO: This led me to start researching other vaccines. I had never read what kind of things these different viruses like measles, polio, tetanus etc. can do to people.

As I read about each virus, I decided to catch up on my childhood vaccines. Here was my reasoning: Tetanus can kill you. It is a horrific and painful death. Even if you live through it, you will have lifelong health problems, chronic pain, and probably PTSD from the experience.

With measles, if you’re around an unvaccinated pregnant woman, you can cause her baby to have permanent, major birth defects.

With polio, I always thought if I didn’t have it as a kid I’d be fine as an adult. I was wrong: it causes MORE severe nerve damage in adults, and can cause you to be paralyzed from the neck down, unable to breathe on your own for the rest of your life. It is irreversible nerve damage.

I’m not trying to scare anyone. I just want to say, that as I researched these different illnesses, I realized that we vaccinate for sickness that we otherwise can’t do anything about, and that are debilitating or fatal.

And yes, someone could look at something like Guillian BarrƩ syndrome, and say that that is just as bad as polio. Personally, I have known two people who had Guillian BarrƩ. Of the two, I know one came from a vaccine. She made a full recovery within months. With polio, there is no recovery. And even if my friend had never recovered, she was still able to walk, although with difficulty, she was able to breathe and eat on her own, and live a normal life.

With tetanus, I thought about the potential adverse reactions I could have from the vaccine, and I realized that any adverse reaction would be better than death. Even if the vaccine killed me, I realized it would’ve been a better death than a death by tetanus.

So all I’m saying to anti-vaxxers out there, please make sure that you do research on what you’re not vaccinating against, and what can go wrong if you do contract these different illnesses. And please weigh the risks and negative outcomes of either vaccinating and something going wrong, or getting one of these illnesses and something going wrong.

I never did that. Maybe all of you anti-vaxxers have. If so, then great. I just never realized that for myself, I hadn’t actually made an informed decision on it. I had listened to what my parents told me without looking at both sides.

And for pro-vaxxers reading this, I hope this helps you understand where some are coming from with vaccine hesitancy. You hear scary stories about adverse reactions, and sometimes it can feel that doctors push vaccines, which made me skeptical, because I thought it was all about money for them.

If you read all of this, thanks.


r/DebateVaccines • • 5d ago

Opinion Piece Science, vs the institution of science.

6 Upvotes

We would all like to believe that the scientific field, scientific institutions, the medical field, and academia are places where science can be practiced in an optimal, fair, and free way. That would be lovely, but unfortunately that is not the real world. Reality is much more difficult than that. The problem with science is that, human beings, and institutions are deeply flawed, and science has to be carried out by those human beings.

Money, politics, sociology, institutional inertia, and power are deeply present in scientific institutions & society itself. Many people are sadly too naive and enter into the fields thinking that they're going to be able to act freely and spend their career doing the right thing and telling the truth, which unfortunately, for many, to varying degrees, is far from the real picture, but what can they do, they've already invested perhaps years, and tons of money and time and passion into it, naturally they will tend towards attempting to convince themselves otherwise, and they will fall in line with the machine operating around them (Sunk cost psychology). This is true provided they can actually see it and have not been placed under the illusion created by the training and indoctrination they receive, which many of them unfortunately have been.

It is also worth remembering just how easy it would be for an anti-science force to control the fields of science simply by ensuring that those who enter them are already selected on the basis that they will not threaten the preferred narratives. Whenever someone says ''99% of scientists agree that''

Well, you're already looking at a bias selection of the population. People who are already distrustful of the institutions/schools or hold certain views that are not in line with the interests of the institutions or fields, are probably not going to pursue an education in which they have to depart from those beliefs to graduate... and for those that did graduate, any that were strong enough dissidents to a particular narrative, probably got kicked out, or ... ''discredited''.

Setting that aside, people in any field, scientific or otherwise, can always benefit from outsiders, who can point out their blind spots and show them where they may be too arrogant, too caught up in their own ego or their own field/peers, or too convinced of their own superiority. Many scientists hold an inherent belief that they are more rational than everyone else simply by virtue of being scientists by trade. That belief does not make them less vulnerable; it makes them more vulnerable to anti-science thinking, to mistakes, to arrogance, to missing things, and to bias, because they start from the assumption that they are somehow less capable, or even incapable, of those failings. The moment you view yourself as uniquely immune to certain mistakes or biases because ''I'm an expert, I'm not a layperson!'' you are more vulnerable to those mistakes, because when they happen you will not acknowledge them.

Also, what do we mean by ''a scientist'' in the broad sense? Anyone can be ''a scientist'' they just have to practice science, they don't have to have a career in it, or have a PhD, they can just DO science.

--- Trade off:

There is an important trade-off that must be made to enter a scientific field, the scientific establishment, academia, or any similar institution.

You don't operate in a vacuum.

You now have to deal with money and incentives and pressures and deadlines and authority.

You have to manage time, energy, and efficiency. You face limitations on freedom. You develop habits, some of them bad, simply because you are doing the same things over and over again in a rigid routine, habits aren't bad by themselves, but, there's a trade-off whenever you're working on auto-pilot doing a sophisticated complicated and delicate task, because the result is, you stop thinking about what you're doing, or think about it less, you are just running a program in your head... And I get it, you can't sit there and think about the endless nuances of everything you do every day, because you'd never get anything done, but you will make a sacrifice.

You also have to protect your career. You cannot just do whatever you like. Something you believe is true and well-supported can still be so damaging to your career that you cannot risk publishing it, or you are simply too afraid to try. Do not tell me that people actually want to be outliers in the scientific field; that is nonsense, especially on controversial topics that genuinely threaten a career and require standing up against a large institutional machine. No one wants to be the one that upset a sensitive narrative and gets blamed for causing disruption or panic, or be the one who get's their license revoked, or (yes I really believe so) accidentally suicided, when they get too close to the truth.

Once science becomes a career, some of what you do is no longer primarily about the pursuit of science or truth (perhaps even most of what you do). It becomes about your career, about making money, getting grants, winning awards, achieving professional success, climbing the ladder, doing what your bosses or the authorities want, producing a product, or generating literature that can be used to justify a government or corporate decision.

I know an ecologist who works as a consultant for the HS2 constructors building the new rail project in the UK. He has repeatedly told me that an ecologists job is not really to be an ecologist (not as he assumed when he studied it); it is to produce a professional, respectable piece of paperwork that can be used to justify demolishing a forest, or a habitat, or a piece of land. His role was essentially to tell the client what they want to hear, because they will not hire or pay him if he says ''no you cannot do that because it will disrupt this habitat, damage that ecosystem, or kill this animal''. That is an example of a scientist who quickly found out, he was not there to do science, or pursue truth, he was there to make money at the cost of truth.

There are many more problems I could mention, but this covers the bulk of them. Simply working in the field of science does not mean you are unshackled in the pursuit of real science; I would argue that you are often far more shackled than someone outside the field.

That is not to say there are no advantages. Insiders have access to more data, more training, colleagues and professors, more money, resources, funding, time, energy, and practice. But those advantages come at a cost.

-- There are variations of knowledge and expertise:

People often make the absolute assumption which is that you cannot achieve a better or wider understanding of a field or topic without formal scientific training, and that the only real path is through university or something similar. And they assume that all scientific training is true, accurate, and fair, just because it's... taught in academia. That assumption has no ultimate justification beyond a feeling a feeling of trust in institutions, in authority, in power, in the state of academia itself (academia 500 years ago would have taught the earth is flat, so we know you can't just assume what it's teaching or producing is always reliable). I am not saying the opposite is usually the case, scientific training is probably more accurate and reliable overall, and the textbooks and methods involved are generally good and reasonable. But that does not mean it is always that way, or entirely that way even when it largely is.

People can practice science without doing it as a job or without formal qualifications. It is not something that requires you to be an expert or a professional. Treating it as though it does is a perversion of what science is supposed to be, because it turns the enterprise into gatekeeping based on status, authority, and class rather than on evidence, data, argumentation, logic, and principle and method.

A field may excel in certain areas of knowledge and data while remaining weak or underexplored in others, especially topics that sit closer to the edges of the prevailing consensus. Those topics are not automatically false simply because they have received less attention, and importantly, people cannot claim expertise on the areas that they have not explored, even if they're in the same field they're training in.

I would use this analogy. There are different ways to explore a Minecraft world. You can dig a hundred blocks deep in forty places, ten blocks deep across a massive area, one block deep in a hundred thousand places, or a thousand blocks deep in a single spot. In the same way, there are different ways of understanding a topic, and some people have the advantage of being able to explore it in a manner that others cannot, sometimes because of the constraints of the environment in which they are studying. Someone in the medical field might have knowledge that is more widely spread but less deep, or a very strong understanding of one area paired with a weaker grasp of others. Meanwhile someone outside the field might have the time and freedom to examine a narrower topic in far greater depth.

Most doctors, for example, do not have the opportunity during their training or in their free time to spend five years reading vaccine-autism studies for hours a day. A random person working from their basement could do exactly that. This does not mean the person in the basement is automatically correct, but it does illustrate a real difference in the kind of inquiry that is possible depending on your situation.

There are freedoms available when you are not traveling the formal academic route, but they come at a cost. You lack ready access to the same resources, peer community, professors, and specialized materials that exist inside universities. Both paths involve trade-offs, and those trade-offs need to be recognized. You do not have to accept everything a non-expert says, but you also cannot dismiss someone simply because they are not, ''an expert''. Science should not be turned into an esoteric system that only people of a certain class or status are permitted to engage in or speak with authority about.

What I fear is happening to science is that it is becoming something antithetical to what it ought to be. At its best science enabled a single person to be able to undermine an entire established consensus. That is what makes science valuable. We are not supposed to rely on consensus, groupthink, authority, status, symbols, or what the overwhelming body of literature happens to say. One could argue that this is why science began in the first place: to reduce the extent to which we depend on our own status, egos, groupthink, tribalism, authoritarianism, biases, and the pressures of the systems (religious at the time) we inhabit. Science in the early Enlightenment was stronger in this respect because it was not practiced in the way it is practiced now. The current approach is very different, and I am concerned that we are moving steadily further away from what science is really about. That drift is incredibly dangerous, perhaps more so than superstition or religion.

One danger is that people working inside scientific spaces tend to believe they are incapable of repeating the same errors their predecessors made centuries ago. They assume that because they are doing things that look scientific or involve data and numbers and microscopes, they must therefore be doing science, but one tiny assumption, one little mistake, one tiny thing missed from a dataset, one little bias, one bad habit, could undermine ALL of it, the microscopes, the model, the sample, it's all completely meaningless because of one small error.

They also carry a form of arrogance that religious people often lacked (I'm not saying they didn't have arrogance, or that there isn't nuances here). Religious traditions frequently acknowledged the limits of human knowledge, admitted that they were operating on faith, and recognized that they were merely fragile human's in comparison to God. What worries me about science is that it can push us toward treating ourselves as though we are God, as though we aren't fragile humans, as if we can play God, as if we aren't operating on any faith, or any feelings, that we can simply know things because we ran a study, because we used some fancy high tech equipment we can now decided that we know X is true, or that our highly flawed and limited senses have somehow disappeared. We exaggerate how well we actually understand the world simply because there is lots of information, but lots of information does not automatically equal lots of quality information, or truth. Quantity > Quality.

Some say scientists are humble, but that humility tends to appear mainly when it is convenient. On certain topics they become extremely confident, when that confidence is unwarranted. Science can improve our understanding of the world, but what gives science it's strength, also makes it highly weak and vulnerable too, it can also be equally used to deceive people and lead us astray from reality, into false perceptions of reality, and it can do so especially by giving people the impression that something has been found and proven by data and not by belief.

The forces that existed before the Enlightenment did not simply vanish from humanity. They adapted. They recognized that science had become the new vehicle for advancing a narrative and for shaping what people think. If you can make something look like science, you can influence belief while also making the effort appear legitimate and fact based, because it is packaged in a scientific language and appearance.

Science is a very very delicate and difficult thing to do properly, which is precisely why it becomes so dangerous when that difficulty is not taken seriously. It is remarkably easy to produce something that looks like legitimate science yet is undermined in its actual integrity by a single tiny overlooked flaw, whether the flaw was intentional or not. It is easy to make mistakes you never notice, easy to underestimate how complicated an issue really is, and easy to achieve a large scale deception with relatively little effort. Studies and research can be gamed in endless ways. You can manipulate science without EVEN committing outright fraud or statistical trickery. Simply refusing to publish a study or a result you dislike is available to anyone who wants to steer a narrative. It does not require faking or tampering with data; the study can remain on a private computer. Publication is not always mandatory. You also can just change the endpoint or method of a study half way through when its not looking in your favour and then you've changed the entire study.

Scientific fraud and manipulation are often extremely hard to detect because they can be subtle, and because thinking scientifically is not inherently easy. That difficulty is exactly why science was invented: we already know how fallible human beings are. As a result, even millions of scientists can fail to notice small errors that have catastrophic consequences for the outcomes and reliability of their research, whether those errors were deliberate or not.

In order to believe ''science'' or believe ''experts'' so readily, you have to fundamentally fail to understand human nature, social dynamics, society, institutions, anthropology, psychology, philosophy.

Anyone who understands those things, becomes far more cynical of scientific establishment/expert consensus.

Perhaps the most scary thing about it all however, is not all of that ^, but actually, the very fact that, these things are not being discussed, not being acknowledged, and that people are not showing concern with some of these issues, and that anyone who does, often is met with aggression, attacks and condescending mockery.

That indicates to me, that we are really at danger, because we appear almost totally unaware or in denial of our own misapplication of science and just how dangerously close we are to becoming the VERY thing we tried to overcome - Dogmatic, status driven, authoritarian, money driven, tribalistic, arrogant, egotistical mouthpieces for the establishment.

Behaving just like the religious zealots we claimed to invent science to fight against.


r/DebateVaccines • • 5d ago

Question Why do certain Provaxxers attempt to shut down important (to those people) discussions and posts with parents who have questions, concerns, or (for whatever reason(s)) don't feel entirely comfortable strictly following the established routine childhood vaccine schedules?

23 Upvotes

Would you rather those people in the above question just not vaccinate at all?


r/DebateVaccines • • 4d ago

Did they spend more money creating the ā€œcorona vā€ in a lab or make more money selling a cure to the masses?

0 Upvotes

Hot take q